#393 Nick Donnelly – Transcript

James Wrigley
Hello, welcome back to another episode. Today I’ve got the pleasure of speaking with Nick Donnelly from plenary wealth. Nick, thank you for joining me today,

Nick Donnelly
James, how are you going?

James Wrigley
Good, good. Thank you. Thanks for appreciate you actually reaching out, I put the post on LinkedIn to say I was starting to do this podcast. And if anyone was up for chat, let me know. And you were one of the first ones to reach out. So thank you, that makes my job a whole lot easier if I’ve got someone volunteering to have a chat. So thank you for joining me. In other words, maybe if we just start with a bit of a chat about plenary wealth to begin with, kind of who you are, where you are the types of clients you deal with, and we’ll, we’ll see where we go from there.

Nick Donnelly
Yeah, okay. Yes, plenary offers 10 this year. So we’ve been around since 2013 is three advisors. So myself and the two guys that started the business, we have three support staff as well. So that spread across our planning operations. We’ve got some offshore support as well. That’s something we’ve introduced in the last few years, which is working really well. We’re based in Sydney CBD. In Spring Street, we’ve we’ve been our licensees Walker lane, which has been for four years. And Walker Lane was actually started by three firms. We have six firms within the licensee now, and three of those firms. So some of the license, so we’ve grown to six, which has been great the last few years. And meanwhile, we’re always on the lookout for for other advisors that are looking to join the group.

James Wrigley
Yeah, right. I can organize a chat with someone else about the licensee change. But what What was that just interesting point that you make that change of license four years ago? Was that a was that a big undertaking to go from wherever you were to kind of your own license of sorts? Was that a big undertaking?

Nick Donnelly
I think definitely, you know, you know, my role that that was, I had been with the business for two years at that time. So I started as an associate, so I wasn’t heavily involved in the actual transition. But, you know, there was a lot of work involved in transitioning across from one lawsuits to another. And I think, often talking to the guys that were involved in and made the decision. It wasn’t actually making the decision, but it was a big part of it. Getting together with like minded advisors and having a crack at changing and doing

James Wrigley
so. Yeah, gotcha. Yep. So you’ve been there for six years, then six years?

Nick Donnelly
I year. So I started, yeah, started as an associate in mid 2017.

James Wrigley
Yep, yep. And what were you doing before that we were in and around the financial advice space.

Nick Donnelly
Always been in financial services. So why I started accounting at university when I finished high school. And I’ve largely worked thereafter in that sort of fund accounting fund administration space, both here and a bit of time overseas as well. And it was about 2016, when I sort of laid the job across to advice. I had a short stint at BT, in their scaled advice team. So that was sort of telephone based advice. It was mostly around sort of superannuation and insurance it was was very scaled. And then, you know, the opportunity presented itself at plenary wealth in 2017. So one of the founders of Josh, you know, I’ve known him personally, sort of all of my life. And when the opportunity came up, yeah, I moved across and started as an associate, and then became authorized in around about 2018 or so. And then an advisor, ever since.

James Wrigley
What was it was there? Was there a trigger for the change in being on the more of the funds assigned to the to the financial advice side? Was it some trigger that made it jump the fence?

Nick Donnelly
Look, I had been seeking you out for a long time. And I find with a lot of other things in life, it’s not till you sort of start getting a little bit older and you start becoming a little more, I don’t know, just just aware of what what works for you, what doesn’t work, what you do, like what you don’t like, you know, and I feel like for most people, you know, the finish high school or jump straight to university, they’re 1819 years old. Nobody really knows exactly what they want to do for the rest of their life. At that age. You’re like your balance decision. And you you try it, you see how it goes. And I think you know, over time, moving I suppose out of the back office space of some of that fund administration and fund accounting into something more client facing was going to be something that worked in my favor, because I think it suits my personality a lot. And for a lot of people that when I was talking about making the jump is bouncing ideas off people. A lot of people were sort of nodding their head and saying yes, I think that’s something that that you’ll be really good at, that are fantastic. So that’s sort of and look, I’ve been fun accounting font of illustration, you know, accounting in general, you know, you’re generally looking back, you know, you get to At the end of financial year, and you’re looking back over the last, you know, 10 to 12 months, what’s taking place? As you know, financial planning is very much about, you know, when a client comes to me too, it’s largely day one. And it’s about planning for every day thereafter. That’s a far more exciting prospect. For me personally, to sort of somewhat comes across in the end, you know, that you’re going to be able to help these people for the next 510 20 years plus,

James Wrigley
yeah, and I think, I don’t know if it’s just a financial advice thing. I speak to a lot of people in financial advice circles, but more and more and more, I think it seems to be really common that people in some way, shape or form have just kind of fell into financial advice, they tend to love it, the people that fall into it and stick around, they tend to tend to love it. But there’s lots of stories of very few people, maybe it’s a little bit more relevant now with the degrees that are pointing you in the right direction. So for sia and all the other requirements that are necessary now, but in years gone by, you did an accounting degree, you did a commerce degree, you did whatever. And then somewhere along the line after you’re 18, now you’re 21, you’re 25, you’re 30. Lots of people seem to just fell in fall into financial advice somehow. And so you’re in a similar kind of path. So that two

Nick Donnelly
year old blueberry it sort of opportunity presents itself, and people like to think about that in the jumpin and I find largely that it’s one of those industries where you’ve got a real concentration of people that are very passionate about. And you don’t get that in every other industry.

James Wrigley
True, no, no, no plenary wealth. So can you talk us through the types of clients that you that you work with there? Who are your clients?

Nick Donnelly
Well, my focus is mainly on elder advice. So typically, a lot of my actual clients will be on the poly elder side, sort of talking sort of 75 plus. However, in most cases, when those types of clients approached me for, for advice, they’re generally with, you know, a son or a daughter or a spouse as well. So you’ll often be working with two generations of quads in in one interaction. So that’s typically most of the clients that I work with. That’s why I focus on sort of elder advice in saying that, I also do work with, you know, a lot of accumulators, a lot of people that have come to a point where, you know, they’ve spent a lot of time I wouldn’t say neglecting their finances, but we all get busy paying off mortgages, raising kids, you know, just trying to keep our head above water. And often Clark will come to you, you know, maybe in sort of their early 40s, mid 40s, late 40s, they’ve got a handle on things now, and then looking to sort of map out the trajectory for sort of the next 1015 20 years. You catch on to that probably the second type of client that we work with, and, and yeah, they’re great clients, because I think as advisors, and this is something we always talk about, there’s a, there’s a scale of clients that want advice, and there’s a scale up and it goes towards headquarters who need advice, and working with clients that really needed advice and then motivated, you know, they’re the people that that I like working with, it’s probably the same sort of most advisors.

James Wrigley
Yeah, I’d agree. I’d agree. So those older clients that I’ve seen, if there’s 75, plus, like, how are they coming to you in the first place? Are they the mum or dad of the 45 year old that you’re that you’re working with? Or are they just finding you through some other means? How does the 75 year old end up sitting in front of you in your office?

Nick Donnelly
Well, I think it comes down largely to how they’re referred to you. So look, look, in most cases, you know, your referrals for aged care for those types of people. A lot of the time, interestingly, it actually comes from other financial advisors. So the reason is that, you know, a lot of advisors don’t really seem to, like working on on aged care, they, I’m not exactly sure why. But in some ways, I suppose I do understand, you know, this specialized, it’s complex, it’s very involved. So a lot of advisors, as you probably aware, don’t don’t sort of unable or aren’t willing to help clients with aged care. So to give you an example, is 10 advisors at Walker lane of which I’m the only one that specializes in aged care, right. So you know, I might get an email or a call from another advisor. And this might be a long standing client, there might be a couple, and one of them needs to move into aged care and they’re looking for their options there. And that’s where that referral come from. So that’s example how they come across to eat.

James Wrigley
So that like that, that type of client where they they’re a long standing client of some other advisor, you’re you’re being bought into do you kind of just doing a like a one off job of sort of you might describe it, but you’re doing a one off job. For this client. That’s a long standing client of some other advisor, you’re wheeled in to deal with the aged care piece. Yep. And then the relationship stays with that, that previous adviser. That’d be right.

Nick Donnelly
Yeah, in that case, that’s correct. Yeah, you know, the relationship outside of that piece of advice continues on the same trajectory. But you know, we do, I suppose what I always say to clients is, no matter who it’s referred to, you know, no decisions are made in isolation. So if it’s a referral from another advisor, their current situation and what they’re doing and how they’re working with that client also becomes a big part of that. At the end of the process, from my side, typically, the relationship just continues with that with the existing adviser. But then I really liked those types of referrals. Because, you know, for several reasons, you know, that the handover is really warm. The client is used to the advice process, and to the client that sees value in advice, because otherwise, they wouldn’t have an existing advisor, nor would they be comfortable to be referred to another advice.

James Wrigley
Gotcha. So you were talking before we started recording about, it’s not just aged care. And there’s a few different elements of this kind of elder advice, aged care type advice that you’re providing, maybe we can tackle each of those and talk through what you’re doing in in the space, maybe what your process looks like. So if we, if we just start with the aged care, as so. So that’s someone needing to go into an aged care home, you’re talking about where, where that introduction might come from, but take it from there. Now you’ve someone’s sitting in front of you, what are you doing? What’s your process? How it how’s that coming together?

Nick Donnelly
Yeah, and I think just know that the first term aged care, it’s, you know, that’s, you know, normally that’s the term that most people use aged care advice. But you know, the said before is, you know, I think that far more as as elder advice, because there are several more elements of several areas of advice that we help clients with. But you know, tackling the the opponent age kit, so we might get a referral from from another advisor or from another referral source. And really common situations, you might have a husband and a wife, and one of the partners is requiring permanent H get. So you sit down at and quite often interesting part about this is that people don’t always know that we actually exist. I’ve had other clients, or other friends that have said to me, Look, I wish I knew. So like you exist, because I’ve been through this process, really, really tough. And people don’t know that this is a specialized area. So yeah, we typically sit down with, you know, a short introduction, phone call, just to get an idea of the type of help that they’re looking for making sure I’m the right person that can help them. And then we’ll have a more extensive sort of scope, just obsession, where we really sit down you, you’re not solving problems, you’re really trying to understand because, you know, understanding and empathy is a huge part of this type of advice, because people are going through a really, really big change. So it’d be a case of sitting down, you know, understanding where they are at, in the aging process as well. You could have someone that is already in aged care in waterfall reservoir, which is sort of like a, you know, a temporary visit to an aged care facility, where it might be some of the that is expecting to need aged care, but it’s kind of like a trial before you buy sort of scenario. So you might have some goods already in there. And they’re trying to understand, you know, what it’s going to cost, you know, the implications for their assets. And we’re going to lose my pension, cake, the pension, I have to sell my house. So that that’s a pretty common scenario, someone come they’re in care or ready to move into. And then it’s a case of just understand where, where they are, what they want, and get a handle on just the ways that you’re going to be able to help them.

James Wrigley
And in terms of in terms of the advice that you that you deliver to them is Is it a is it a scoped PE in this case where it’s residential aged care? Is that a scoped piece of advice dealing with residential aged care? Or using anything like the aged care steps, calculators, advice generators, like out how you actually generating that advice, delivering that advice? What tools you’re using? Yeah, most

Nick Donnelly
definitely. So when when someone comes to you, when they are ready to move to aged care, it’s very much about one of the first questions people always have is, you know, how much is it going to cost? And what’s the best way to pay for it? So, you know, there’s a vast amount of information out there that can help particularly with a lot of the product arrives. A lot of the product providers software, provide fantastic software and calculators that can give you an idea of exactly what things are going to look like. How much is it going to cost each and every year? What might pension change bias so the impact on the cash flow and the strategy comes from that? If we do option A, this is what it’s going to cost because every decision that they make, particularly financially is large So you’re gonna have an impact on the Centrelink entitlements, which should now say Centrelink entitlements. I’m talking about their age pension. But I’m also then talking about the actual fees and charges that the aged care facility is going to charge which is guided by Central. So yes, it’s usually software available for you, really to project out and place a picture in front of the client to say, this is exactly what it’s going to look like if we choose this path.

James Wrigley
And so and so once you’ve, you’ve delivered that advice, you’ve come up with the, you know, the optimal way that you believe to get him restructure their assets or pay pay for things. What’s your involvement, then off? Off? Off the back of that, if the selling houses or whatever, how hands on are you with, with the back end of that advice? piece?

Nick Donnelly
Yep. Very, very much involved, all the way through the entire process. And one of the things about aged care advice is, it’s highly emotive, you know, when people, when people come to you, you know, they haven’t just woken up in the morning and thought, you know, I think of like, it’s an aged care device, this is something that’s been probably rattling around in their heads for for several months, or several years. And when someone comes across, and they sit down, and, and, you know, you say to them, Look, you go through this once or twice in your life, I’m doing this every day of the week, you see, you know, the shoulders relaxed, the tension largely disappears, because they feel like I found someone, so I found someone that can help me with that strategy. But he’s going to essentially handhold me through that through that whole process. So in the case of if they if they’re selling a property, I’ll be involved with that, or worked with a real estate agent of that choosing, or I can help them find one that that they’re comfortable to work with, if we moving assets around. So I’ll be involved in managing that entire process for them. And then also interacts with both the aged care facility and also with Centrelink, for the aged care facility just managing the communication so that clients not stuck in the middle, some other saying, Clyde A will be moving into your facility, we’re going to pay pay Arad of X amount, and the daily payment for the remainder are expecting the asset to sell in three months, money will be transferred to and you know, my role is just to keep the client informed, you know, I will need their help along the way with transfers and signing forms and so forth. But really, my role is to execute everything and communicate between, I guess, everyone, and then that does extend to Centrelink as well. So we will become what’s called a Centrelink nominee for our clients, which essentially means we can communicate with Centrelink. So we can ask questions, we can provide updates. And, you know, Centrelink is you know is can sometimes be a big battle particularly for a lot of wind has already had exposure to which they normally have because they partway through the process. You know, they have a little bit of fear about it, which I understand. So it’s just a case of not really updating Centrelink, but the big part was settling you and making sure that they do what they say they’re going to do. You can’t take anything for granted. And with Centrelink. It’s our job as advisors to make sure that they understand what we’re communicating to them, and that they put it in place. And that’s just something you learn over time. So that’s our role during the process. And really, our, I guess our role ends once we’re comfortable asset restructures have been a mat amended if they need to property buys and sells the fees that the client have been charged a curette. Their Centrelink entitlements have been amended correctly. Estate planning also comes into it as well in the interaction between paying a rent to an aged care facility what that looks like when the resident eventually passes away. And we’re looking at really our role really ends that at that point when we’ve implemented all steps in the advice.

James Wrigley
So that’s the residential aged care part but but other areas of elder advice that you’re that you’re providing maybe the first step before that with the Home Home Care Packages, what what does that look like because we have it first financial we do a little bit of aged care advice as well. But in terms of being really keen to pick your brain on it in terms of feeling like we’re being valuable in that residential Sorry, sorry, in the Home Care Package space. I think we’re still the jury’s out on that. Yeah. How are you dealing with that? What are you doing in the in the homecare packages?

Nick Donnelly
Yeah, I’m good. Probably, you know, I represent a relatively small portion of that boss we provide. What we often find is a client might already be receiving homecare when they come to us because they might have a view saying, you know, mom or dad or spouse, maybe moving into primary care at the moment, we’re getting home care under package 1234. So, if however, your client comes to us and they come to us with intentions, they look like oh like to get some homecare, what am I entitled to? And can you help me obtain? And you know the answer is yes. So, again it comes back to I suppose homecare will be slightly is slightly less involved in the sense that it generally doesn’t require as big a decisions around your asset restructuring you know the big decision buying selling the why normally come into it. It’s more about you know, everyone is aware of the massive wait times for for the homecare why centrally so it’s about again becoming the central league nominee, making sure that we’re communicating with Centrelink, they’ve got all the information that they need. So we don’t get to the front of the queue. And I say this box hasn’t been ticked. And we’ve got to start to get once we get to that point where we’ve been branded homecare under a particular package. We also have other partners that we refer to homecare providers, because the client typically has to choose that themselves. So we’ve got a sort of trusted network there of people that can help against making sure they get the care that they’re going to be paying for because it is a space that is a little bit gray, I would potentially describe it. You know, like any profession, there’s some homecare providers that are a lot better than others. True. So that’s typically our role with homecare and other areas of elder advice.

James Wrigley
You mentioned before we started recording, there was granny flats. I’ve I haven’t done any advice around granny flats. I know roughly what they’re talking about, but the ins and outs of it, I’ve got our day, what are you doing in that space?

Nick Donnelly
Yeah, it’s it’s, it’s, it’s a very, very interesting space. And I think it’s an area that will continue to become more and more popular, you know, with, you know, the cost of property just increasing exponentially, particularly along the the eastern seaboard. So essentially, I guess, to go back a step, so a granny flat arrangement, or they used to be called sort of life interests. Essentially, you had two parties, in most cases, it will be an elder. And then it’s typically you know, a son or a daughter. So it’s an think of it as an exchange. So the elder will provide financial support to the son or daughter, typically, now that could be in the form of cash, that could be in the form of property, or a combination of both. So it works in the sense that the elder person think of it, often it can be thought of as an early inheritance. And it’s a great tool for that. So they might buy a property for for son or daughter, fantastic. In exchange for that, the son or daughter agrees to provide care for that elder for the rest of their lives. So there’s two parties to it. Now what’s really important to remember with Granny Flat arrangements is your client is typically is always the elder because they’re the most vulnerable. And they’re the ones they’re the one that has the most to lose. So never forget who your client is, is a big part of gratified, arranged, it’s something that I’ve learned. So you have a scenario where mom and dad moving with son or daughter, and they agree to take care of them for the rest of their life. Now, this is a legally binding agreement. So it is we consult with a lawyer to draft these agreements, I’m often meeting with, with our clients and understanding that they’re all very comfortable to move forward, because there is a financial side of it. But there’s also the non financial side, it’s, it’s one thing to say, Yes, I’m happy to receive these assets, I’m more than happy to take care of mine for the rest of her life. But the dynamics of relationships can change over time. moving in with an elder bear is a user far different proposition in reality, versus theory. And I think often people can be clouded by the reality of now getting themselves on the property ladder. And then when the reality hits of looking at someone without for the rest of their lives, you know, the last thing that we ever want is a relationship to be strained because of that, but our role is advisors, you know, in almost every advice is to, you know, hope for the best but also plan for the worse. We need to help people picture what this is going to look like. Because when things go south, you know, memories can be short. It typically with the top a range of beyond just the exchange of assets and so forth. There’s there’s a change in Centrelink controllable entitlements as well, because there’s typically if you’re earning the full pension, you can’t just give away or if you’re earning no pension or part pension, you got to be willing to give all your assets away to receive the full fetch the gifting provision, so granny flat arrangements allow fun of an exemption for those assets as they’re giving away that the client typically largely if it’s done correctly, won’t be wiped be negatively impacted from a social security point of view?

James Wrigley
Is there some type of limit to how much you can give away or calculation that happens? So what? What does that look like,

Nick Donnelly
there’s a, there’s a formula or a relatively complex formula that is based on age. So as you as you get older, the number changes per child. So it’s sort of up scaled, and it depends on the client’s age. But it also depends on the type of asset that is being transferred as well. So once you’ve made that the su 21, understanding of what they’re looking for, what they’re actually picturing the the outcome to be, that’s when you start working with Centrelink and say, Okay, well, if if you give away X amount, that amount won’t count towards your assets as for your full age pension. So it’s just another example of not looking at anything in isolation. If there’s no point someone giving away all their assets, if they’re just going to lose the pension have no cash flow to live on. So it’s sort of you’ve got competing, not competing interests, but you you need need to think think of both both sides of the equation. But also just be conscious that the elder is the one away, that’s largely giving away the bulk of their assets. So they are the one that’s more vulnerable. They’re the one with more to lose, and they’re the client, it’s important, never forget that.

James Wrigley
You’re talking about relationships, and the reality of living with mom or dad may be different to what it sounds like before it happens. Any horror stories of of other things going south or it’s been mainly sailing mostly,

Nick Donnelly
the tip to give you some background, up until two years ago, granting flight arrangements existed, but no legal contract was required, centrally accepted. A granny flat arrangement was in place, but the elder did, the elder had had virtually zero protection. Because son or daughter takes the money. They move in together, a son or daughter gets a new apartment, new, a new partner doesn’t like mum or dad, mom or dad’s giving away all of their assets to the kid. And then Mom and Dad’s out on the street level of solar assets. And that was an extreme, but that is 100%. What typically happened and it’s it’s just one example of what we call elder abuse. That is a that’s a really tragic outcome. And it wasn’t that uncommon, as hard as that is to believe. Now, what changed two years ago was legal contracts were acquired a legally binding agreement was acquired. It was part of the changes to CGT legislation, because if they could have been CGT implications for the person giving away that property because he’s technically selling the property. So to ensure that people were exempt from CGT. The legally binding agreement was is now required, which which is great from a CGT exemption point of view. But more importantly, you you won’t have those situations where mum or dad could be out on their own with absolutely nothing. For Sam, it’s a complex area. But I truly see that multi generational living, I see that thing it’d be part of the future because you know, people growing up now the challenges of buying a house for someone that is 20 years old, as opposed to you know, when I was a lot younger, it is incredibly difficult than it. This is a fantastic way for that to happen. But it’s just got to be you just got to tread tread with caution.

James Wrigley
Yeah, really a really interesting space to be involved in actually now that you explained that. Thank you.

Nick Donnelly
Yeah. Thank you.

James Wrigley
Any any other major areas of elder advice that you’re doing?

Nick Donnelly
Is there anything else that we do we do retirement villages as well? Or yeah, retirement village? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So look, that’s probably retirement villages. And I guess the commonality between permanent aged care retirement villages is that there’s, there’s a big, you know, required there’s a capital requirement to go into a retirement village. And generally, there might be a decision that needs to be made around asset restructure. The family home is typically how people fund their entry into retirement village. Yep. So again, it’s it’s a case of, I’ve got some clients at the moment. You know, they’ve had a couple of health issues over the last sort of 12 months, that fully no need for for permanent aged care. But a retirement village is definitely going to give them far more security, you know, people, people don’t move into retirement villages. To make money. It’s quite the officer yards or a dive village. They run by typically large operators. And when you leave, you typically pay what’s called a departure fee. servicemen See, whatever you want to call it. And that’s a big part of it. Big As moving into retirement village is fantastic for people that there’s amenities, there’s like minded people best care close by, often they are quite close to an aged care facility or that connected to it in the event that a resident might need permanent care in the future. So it’s the perfect outcome for a lot of people, but you typically, you might be selling your home, and you, you know, ultimately often transfer that exact amount to the retirement village, and you broadly don’t share in the capital gains of that retirement village. So you’re moving it from an asset that ideally would be typically growing in value. And you moving it across to an asset that you don’t share the capital gains Plus, when you leave, generally paid departure fee to that can be up to 35%. Yeah, that’s huge. But you know, we say to clients, look, it’s the you’ve got to think about the non financial piece that’s gonna give you the security, knowing that help is close by ground floor. Lots of accessibility and lots of like minded people around you. You know, that’s a great outcome. Sometimes the kids aren’t as happy because it does affect the ultimate state. And that’s a big question we ask God, you know, we say, so many elders, so many older, we’re a real common themes, I find with with elder advice is they’re more the clients are more worried about their kids than themselves. I don’t want to get I don’t want to pick it too nice or aged care facility, because I don’t want to my fees to be too wide, because it will leave less for the children.

James Wrigley
It’s interesting, isn’t it? When they clients get to that stage, there’s a the younger, retired age, it’s more about we’re spending money having a good time traveling. And then as they get to that 75, it seems a bit of a mortality thing. Worried about how much are they leave him behind? Making a decision about how much they might leave behind?

Nick Donnelly
Yeah, that’s exactly right. They, they become concerned about that. And, you know, again, it comes back to you know, never forgetting who your client is, you know, we want their mind to be expanded to say, look, I’m certainly not discounting that in any way, shape, or form. But you do need to think about yourself as well. And sort of striking that balance and that you typically you land somewhere in the middle. So yeah, it’s a it’s a very common common theme, I suppose.

James Wrigley
So we’ve got sort of a residential aged care, there’s the Home Care Packages, Granny Flat arrangements, retirement villages, anything else? Is there a fifth one?

Nick Donnelly
Now that’s, that’s, that’s pretty much it. And I’d say probably, you know, two thirds of that will probably be permanent aged care, but I’m sort of the bigger point piece of the pie is definitely granny flat arrangements, and retirement villages. I think that’s going to be the case, sort of going into the future. And look, we’ve searched before on that sort of one off piece of advice for our clients. And it typically does, but, you know, in some cases, you know, clients do if they do if a client comes from, say, an accountant or a lawyer or from an aged care facility themselves, they may not have an advice replace. And once once that sort of implementation is complete, you know, they offer often her clients that to stay on as long as it’s

James Wrigley
perfect. Yeah. Thanks for joining me, Nick, where can people find you if anyone if there’s any advisors listening, but as you said, there’s not that many that doing aged care or elder advice, and they need your help? Where can they find you? Where can they reach out to

Nick Donnelly
probably LinkedIn is probably the easiest way but but all my details are also available on the plenary wealth website as well.

James Wrigley
Perfect and we’ll put some links and things in the in the show notes for anyone that’s watching this or listening along. Probably not not watching a video. This thing along there’ll be a recent comments in wherever you wherever you’re, wherever you’re listening to this, you might be able to click through. So thanks again, Nick. Appreciate you joining me and thanks for being here.

Nick Donnelly
No, it was great. Great to be here. Thanks so much.