399 Paul Mann – Transcript

Clayton Daniel
G’day, Clayton here from Ensombl. It’s been a little while. But I needed to drag you in to the podcasting arena again, Paul for the fifth or sixth time. I can’t remember how many it is. But, mate, it’s Monday morning, thank you so much for coming in.

Paul Mann
Mate, I’ve dragged myself all the way in clay this morning. All the way in from Cronulla. It’s a long way, God’s country isn’t I don’t you know, you know, when I come in the city much these days.

Clayton Daniel
That’s when I found out you were coming in? That’s where we booked it in.

Paul Mann
Absolutely. Glad to be here made as usual. I mean, let’s let’s tear everything apart.

Clayton Daniel
Let’s tear it all apart. So. So there’s a lot lot to discuss. One of the one of the key things that I’m hearing a lot about is there’s a lot going on in terms of there’s a lot of business, there’s a lot of business to be had at the moment. And in the business of financial planning. What’s your view on that?

Paul Mann
There’s always been lots of business in the business of financial planning, because or financial advice, whatever we’re calling ourselves these days, because people need advice. People need to understand how to deal with money on a day to day basis. Now, currently, yes, there’s a massive gap in the market where people aren’t getting that lower level advice that they used to get, you know, through, you know, people come into their workplace workplace super thin, you know, that all that sort of thing? Yeah. So, and the complexity of the world is getting more complex. So it is and you know, people getting scammed all the time. People need advice, clay, and that’s what it is. And funnily enough, what we’re half the size we used to be. So supply and demand mate. It’s as simple as that. And so yes, we’re, we’re very busy at the moment as well, which is looking great. But the challenge around that, like, it sounds great, right? Yes, I’m got clients knocking down our door. However, there’s been no allowances made in any way shape, or form around the compliance that we need to do. So all that that, you know, was in place pre pre Royal Commission. Yeah. It’s still there. And I post Royal Commission. And you know, so everyone’s, so a lot of people have left, and there’s been no allowances for those who are still here. Yeah. fighting the good fight. Yeah. Yeah, it’s challenging, right. So yes, whilst it may seem to observers that we’ve got it easy, it’s actually really tough putting business through, you know, it’s a lot of work

Clayton Daniel
has has the requirements for implementation increased over the last 12 months,

Paul Mann
they’ve stayed the same. Okay, so nothing’s really changed. Now. Whilst there’s been all the jawboning and all this sort of stuff, and people being compensated and blah, blah, blah. We all know those stories. There’s been no allowances in changing anything for the last five years, really. So it’s not easy stuff. Yeah. Easy being advisor. We’re still not trusted in the society. You know, what I mean, like, by by the regulators and everything like that any

Clayton Daniel
kind of improvement in that regard? Well, I

Paul Mann
did see an article coming out from Stephen Jones that I think there was a late Friday that now that the budgets out the way he can get on with his QA or whatever, you know, quality quality of advice review. Yeah. And looking at that. The only one thing that he has announced was that the land, so the pathway for an experienced advisor, you know, there have been years Well, the 10 years, and you don’t need to do a new degree and all that sort of thing. Which will keep people in the industry, which is good, and very experienced people. Yeah. And the people who want to be in the industry, because they’re still here. Yeah. So yeah, that’s been the only announcement that I’ve seen, which does give some comfort to old timers like me, Mike,

Clayton Daniel
what’s what’s interesting is that a bunch of the guys that I know are going to hit the nine and a half year mark around that time, which is pretty brutal. So yeah, I’m not quite sure what they can do about that bit. My God if they can avoid having to do another whole degree,

Paul Mann
well, or you know, a gap analysis of your your qualifications, all that sort of thing. And look, I get it and what Biney challenge with that is, you know, the will that if they weren’t going to do that as well, you know, I did a degree a very long time ago. It’s not relevant whatsoever, right? In this day and age free you did in hairdressing didn’t you might come on now you’ve told my secrets. And I got it in the cornflakes packet. My degree now. It was a long time ago. And you know, the world’s changed 20 times since then. Yeah. But I’ve been a licensed advisor since 2000. And I’ve hit every, you know, CPD point. Yeah, you Every year, I’ve done an extra study because you have to do that for you know, just other qualifications that you’ve done. I’ve done, you know, my chartered program through the AFA, you know, Chartered Financial Advisor, fish and chips, as I called it. So I’ve done it. Yeah, you have to do things a long time on a mortgage broking licenses, things like that. Right. Yeah. But if you’ve done 20 odd years of CPD points, yes. I mean, these days, I’m actually writing, you know, things that are earning people CPD points, right. So there needs to be, I just hope for the industry and for every, you know, the consumers out there and the customers and the people out there who need advice that we just have some clear air for a while. Yeah. Because it has been a long hard road mate. And hence, why look like I do. Thank God, we’re not videoing this. It hasn’t been easy. It’s taken its toll sometimes, you know,

Clayton Daniel
I’ll look, it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s almost, it’s almost like financial planning became so hard. So difficult, you know, the numbers halved, right. But at least the stability has meant that work can be done. But everyone’s had to adopt a particular model. With the cue AR, right, that’s probably going to be the next big thing in whatever version comes out. Let’s assume because this is a really fun, and it is a thought experiment, but it’s a thought experiment that I think has has some validity. Let’s assume Q AR comes in. Now, I’ll walk you through the way that I kind of see it happening. I see a lot of advisors who have been through the hard yards, right. So everyone now has a pretty clear process. Everyone now knows what it costs to deliver advice. Everyone knows how many hours it’s going to take, they know the type of work that they can deliver, which adds value to the client and to their own, you know, revenue lines. And, and a lot of I would say, the fat has been cut off, not not so much in terms of the people within the industry, but certainly within the business models of financial planning. Now, if que AR comes around, there’s a handful of questions or a handful of sort of areas, that things are going to change first and foremost, licensing. I mean, licensing in its true sense right now, is something that a magnifying glass is constantly being thrown over the top of by financial planners. Yep. Has to be the major cost. Absolutely. And and if Q AR comes in the necessity for what the value is delivered within a license is going to be massively challenged. That’s that’s clearly going to be one of the first things it’s not that there is a systemized approach at eroding licenses. But it kind of can be interpreted that way over the last few years.

Paul Mann
Yeah, look at licensing is definitely something that has evolved and has continued to evolve. And, you know, being a part of it, you know, boutique license, which is, you know, all my self licensing without self licensee, I’m in a great position there. But it’s something that five years ago, six years ago, I would not have even contemplated, you know, it just wasn’t worth it. But the shift now has become, and we’ve seen the numbers, you’ve seen the shifts, you know, the the small, smaller, self licensed or smaller boutiques far outweigh the old? Yeah, awesome models. And that is big. It’s actually a purely as a risk situation, right? So if you’re in a big dealer group, which, you know, great, you know, and everyone’s got those choices. I’m not rubbishing those, because I’ve been part of those. Yeah, there’s some fantastic, you know, of course, great licensees out there. But the risk factor now is the lowest common denominator, right? So your risk you’re running as an advisor, isn’t you? It’s that one person in that big group who may let the side down and you’re exposed in that way, as opposed to a small group of people that you know, really well that are of similar competency and in similar workloads, because it’s a really it’s a big trust exercise these days. Right. Yeah, it’s very, it’s a very different dynamic. Yeah. And as you say, you know, with Cuellar, and, you know, we’ll see what measures come out. Making self licensing more simple, would be, I think, a real boon for the industry and allow people to develop different models. Yeah, and different now open up. And that’s the way I’m seeing this QR thing. Licensing is part of it. But at the moment, you are pretty restricted on what model of your business is right? Unless

Clayton Daniel
you really go hard in a particular area. You’re right.

Paul Mann
But you know, the gap, or, you know, for the we used to do, you know, back in my business used to do and what true direction was set up to do was to be in the grip area, you know, look after, our vision was always to look after a lot of people, not just a few, right, yeah, that’s been thrown out that’s not existent. You can’t, you can’t make money, you can’t actually do that. Yeah, properly. And you see that even the super funds and everyone that no one’s really doing, but small one on one, you know, light advice, which a majority of the world needs. So that that all of a sudden, QR maybe opens up different business models, which, you know, I find exciting. And, you know, it’s sort of like, well, what do we do? Now? You know, do we want to just keep a business that’s, you know, high net worth clients or high touch clients, you know, people who are prepared to pay a certain amount per year to, for you to really give them an I see it as high touch more than high value high, high net worth, yes, a client who needs high touch versus good, yeah, well, and holding, all of a sudden QAM may open up those old doors, for authorized advisors, you know, licensed advisors to start pivoting on their models a little bit more. Yeah. That’s the way I’m sort of looking at it. And I hope, you know, I don’t see it as something threatening to advice at all this is trying to make things a bit easier so that we can see more people and just improve that side of things, as opposed to trying to look at our margins and how we need to squeeze more. And from a business point of view, I’ll never look at it from a business point of view.

Clayton Daniel
Interesting. Yeah, I mean, the licensing is, is, well, one element, the business model element, I think is a huge thing. I have had the absolute privilege of learning about a lot at this stage of micro niching, financial planning companies that are doing extraordinarily well. It’s almost like if you go back a decade and longer it was I’m micro niche by looking after rich people. And now, and now, the niching that’s involved is so crazy, because every single, every single career path needs a niche financial planning service. So tech, pilots, expats, you name it, aged care, keep going, right? Like, there are so many different models that are out there, where people can pursue interests that they have or experience that they have. And I think you’re probably right, I think the QA er, makes that a hell of a lot easier. Well, it’d

Paul Mann
be nice to just be able to just not rely on that one. Nice. I mean, look, what I think about our business, and we’ve, we started a niche, but now you sort of have to be a generalist as well. A nice generalist, which doesn’t make any sense, right. But that’s what it is, you know, essentially, because you’re talking about aged care, we’ve had to learn that, you know, we’ve talked about PILOTs, so many pilots, but but, but there’s that I think of our client base, and it is very diverse. And it’s, you know, if you’d asked me that, that’s what I’d be doing. When I set this business up five and a half years ago, I’d be like, no chance. Now, and we do and we love it. And you know, it’s great, but you’ve got to be really careful. You’ve got to be really careful about who your clients are. Yes. Right. And that’s something that in the past, sort of look after everyone. We don’t Yeah, on purpose, you know. So you’ve got to vet your clients and make sure that you know, they’re not going to cause you or your business harm in in the future. Yeah. In terms of I don’t want to be going rogue on you a little bit. Because it’s because all you’ve got your reputation, so you should be very careful. And you want people who listen to you advice. Yes. Like, anyone can give advice, but the trick is to get people to take it up right and do this and implement it. Yes. So we’re really slow with our onboarding with clients for that very reason. We just want to get to know them. We have really knuckled Antonia are focused on just looking after referral business. Yeah, knowing we’re keeping a small amount of referral sources, but really making sure that that’s recognized. And that’s part of it. And that people do refer. Because that’s, you know, when you get like, like for like, and people come in, and they’ve got the right expectations, the trust there and you don’t, you’re less likely to get a rogue. And we’re not talking about right. Yeah. It’s not roads, actually. It’s not roads. It’s just you can’t get along with everyone. Sure. Yeah. But I don’t want to look at my phone. If a client’s calling in I think I’ve said this before. Yeah. And go, Oh, my God, that person’s calling, right. Yeah. Yeah. You don’t want that

Clayton Daniel
100%? Well, one of the things, one of the things that just off the back of the QA, as well, is, and this sort of goes into what you’re saying is, let’s assume, from here that the QA is picked up. Let’s assume that the cost to serve, right, is halved. Now how that happens, I can’t give you the exact time.

Paul Mann
Don’t Don’t put that in the universe. But just just You’re gonna make me pass out. You won’t have to freak. So just imagine.

Clayton Daniel
So. So the cost, the cost, the cost of the cost of delivery advice, Hobbs, dare I say, as a result, the cost or the time to deliver Ha is harmed, right. Where I’m kind of going with this is there’s there’s a there’s a universe out there, where the ability to go from 100 clients to 200 clients? exists? Yep. Yep. Let’s assume, you know, the market has already priced in the value of advice, and we’re not we’re not discounting from where it is. But we’re taking on twice as many clients. What are you thinking? Or where does your mind go to in terms of implementation efficiencies? Because that’s kind of the next step. I think I think that most advisors I speak to the leads, or, you know, potential for new business isn’t so much the issue. I think a lot of people are saying the way that you just said they’ve been particular with who they work with. But assuming that there are the issues upfront, and the cost, and the time is hard. The implementation actually doesn’t get any easier. That’s

Paul Mann
that’s, we all know, it’s the biggest roadblock at the moment. Like, yeah, so a production is probably not that. Not as bad as it used to be. Especially, you know, yeah, we’re using an external company. Yeah. And not we’re using that not just for efficiency, but for compliance reasons, as well, as, you know, to safety. It’s having a wicket keeper there. Like, it’s just making sure that you’re double checking things. Right. So that’s, that’s the value of that, that we see. But until until that changes, but so but implementation, I mean, I’ve just come out of our weekly so we have a weekly meeting. Your your team. So yeah, we have a zoom woke up every Monday morning. What are we going to do? Like? Because you got to keep track? Yes. And how do you do that? You know, absolutely. Shared spread, you know, shared Google Drives. That’s what we use. And we’ve got an implementation process, right. And because you can miss things very quickly, very easily. It’s, it’s really, really difficult. And you’ve got to make sure that you’ve got, you know, each client has a has a champion, I suppose who is running that? Yeah, well, no one’s responsible, right. Yeah, exactly. So we all know, every week, but you know, even though it’s like, didn’t do that last week, I’ve got to get on that today. I’ve got to make that call. And because we’re what we call product agnostic, which I suppose everyone is these days, but you know, it’s all over the place. It’s not like we’re just logging into one provider. And you know, there’s challenges coming from every provider. And then once you bring insurance into it, Christ. God, that’s your talk about the biggest hassles in Yeah, financial advice right now.

Clayton Daniel
Actually, that is it. I can’t talk about it right now. But there is some development going on that I’ve recently seen, which, who knows that might change

Paul Mann
might know who, maybe maybe maybe not the insurance industry’s in, obviously changed, obviously. And I don’t think they’ve been So yeah, I don’t think they’ve addressed it well, but you know, I might be controversy here and all the insurance will call me but no, it’s uh, you know, it is a hard game that and that, that for me because of it Look, let’s just a simple scenario, you know, you’re moving, you’re rolling over someone’s super from, you know, something that’s probably not priced that well these days and there is a lot out there or you know, they’re on the government’s shit list or whatever it is. You know, so you’re rolling over super. But they’ve got insurances involved. Yes. And you’re writing them. So they’re going from a group to a retail? Yeah. underwriting? Yeah, everything stops until you go through that, you know, they put a PMA out there. So you know, they’re trying to get in touch with the local medical clinic trying to get a report from a doctor who is over worked. And, yeah, that whole process is a cake. Yeah, man, and just stops. Yeah, because you can’t do the rollover. Yeah, you can set the new fund out. You can’t do the rollover, you can’t implement. Yeah,

Clayton Daniel
everything’s all everything stopped. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Paul Mann
And so these are the challenges and these other, you know, obviously, other challenges around there. But that sort of that sort of implement were how do you keep track of that? 100%? How do you get? How do you keep the client engaged and not feeling frustrated with the process? How do you hold your hand held a hand through that, and then, and then nine times out of 10, these days, you’re getting an adverse, you know, if there’s anything that’s an adverse, we had a big discussion this morning, around our insurance book, and some of the conclusions that are underwriting team will come back to you with is just me, you scratch your head? And then you’re the one that’s gonna go back to the client and deliver Yeah, you know, a much worse result than we thought at the start. So, again, implementation take takes many facets, but you’re right. If we could somehow improve that would be great. Yeah. But I don’t know, I can’t, I can see, you know, as you said, the cost of serve, you know, making it easier. Requirements are our statement, Vice licensing, fantastic. But at the end of the day, the grunt work needs to be done, and you need to get through those processes and the better suppliers, which, you know, look, there are, obviously there’s new people in town, and that if we can regenerate this advice industry, then suppliers will have to come to the party and make it easier for us. Yeah, and to get our business because it’s not about paying us anymore. It’s not about helping you. There’s no incentives there, you know, around, come with us, and you’ll get super overrides all those sorts out the old day stuff, right. Even insurance, right? It’s a flat commission, everyone’s doing the same thing. So it’s not like there’s any carotene out there. Yeah, you go and go, Well, I’ll go with them. Because it’s same price, and I get something else. Yeah. So the only thing they can give us this time, our time back. That’s good. That’s where they, you know, to keep advisors using them, you know, and yeah, insurers must be, you know, I don’t think they’re struggling because the markets are okay. But I think that their inflows are down. Massively, right. Yes. Which is huge. Right? Yeah. Yeah. If my business fill, flooded by 75% Yeah, I’d be having to review I’m even in here. But,

Clayton Daniel
you know, there. I mean, obviously, any financial planner who’s worked in insurance? No one’s wishing to see that right. Like,

Paul Mann
oh, God, no. Insurance, is it for my insurance is is integral in the advice process? It’s, yeah, we look at sometimes I talk to calf about this, my business partner, we we sometimes take it too far, when we try to think of everything and some, some people just niching and just going well, we’re just gonna do whatever. So we sort of probably cover too much sometimes, but it’s just who we are. But insurance, we have to you have to do that. If there’s a need there. You have to, if there’s a gap there, you need to cover that gap. Yes. And it’s not pumping insurance up anymore. Like a lot of the time we see people and they’ve got too much insurance. Yeah, yeah. We’ll dial it down. Yeah, that’s yes. A lot of what we’re doing if we’re building their wealth, then yeah, their need for insurance goes down, but naturally, so it but you have to deal with it. Yes. We can’t not deal with it. And it’s a pain in the neck.

Clayton Daniel
It is it is. It’s killing it. You know, it’s one of those things like and I have been thinking about this for a little while now. And, you know, there are many outsourcing solutions that are going on out there, right, like our Chairman’s highly involved in one you’re using one, you know, there’s there’s probably about five out there on the market that are big names. And then and then there’s, you know, Australian base sort of smaller, individual paraplanners. But the implementation, what I’m seeing is a massive implementation backlog. Oh, once the QA hours that it’s it’s, it’s almost it’s almost like the every product has been able to hide around the fact that compliance has held everything up. But if that if if hundreds if that if that curtain is pulled back, all of a sudden it’s going to be the emperor has no clothes and all the whole industry is going to be standing there struggling with getting done what needs to be done?

Paul Mann
Totally Sorry, I’ve just been distracted. Someone was were superstars. My people are taking photos outside for some reason. Obviously, I’m in the building. But absolutely no one has solved that problem and the implementation problem at all. And we can talk about it at nauseam, but there is no. And the off, you know, yes, there’s outsourcing. But they don’t know the clients like we do. They don’t know the process. They don’t know us like it’s right. And some tools are better than others. So we do outsource certain part. But in the end we hired we hired someone who to help us out. Yeah, because it was just getting too much, you know, and that work? You know, it’s not the fun bit. That’s for sure. So you know, we’ve got someone part time, who helps us and sits in on the meetings and takes care of the basics.

Clayton Daniel
Actually, I overheard a conversation you were having with a client the other day, I just, we it was just five seconds, and you use the length, I actually thought you were talking to someone in your team. But when you said it was a client, and you said, oh, yeah, when you log in, this is what you feel out. This is this is how you get it done. And and, and so your implementation is obviously involving the client themselves to a certain extent, to help with their their hand holding?

Paul Mann
Well, some things you need that, like they have to sign it. Yeah, when you say one of our super providers. So you know, you set it all up, you don’t print out a form and send them to you anymore. It’s all online. And so I’m just trying to hold their hand through that process, so that they are signing off. And it’s only application, right and knowing that every single product has a different although we’ll do my application process. And even the one even the product providers have different processes for different products wild, like super versus investment, things like that. So yeah, it’s not just so you’ve got, that’s the challenge. You’ve got to go which which platform Am I on? What’s the process again? Which, which way? Do I yeah, how do I navigate these? You know? Which look that’s, I suppose that goes with the territory. And if you if you are, you know, product agnostic, then it is a rod for your own back. We do quarterly snapshot reports for all our clients, right, a seasonal snapshot report, it’s murder.

Clayton Daniel
What software are you using to do this work for you? Oh, my spreadsheets. Oh, my God spreadsheets. And my spy reminds me a lot.

Paul Mann
But you know what I mean, it works. We love doing it. It’s a pain because you’re logging in to all these different providers. You Some don’t even have logins, because some of you know we use industry, some of our clients have been just refunds and what if it’s not broken? Don’t fix it. Right. If it’s fit for purpose, we’re not moving. Yeah. But you know, you’ve got to call them and they’ve got different processes and third party authorities expire. And yeah, it’s wild. It is, you know, but it makes us check every client’s account every quarter. Yeah, to make sure nothing’s wrong, right. Yeah. So it is worthy is worth it from a business point of view. And it’s, you know, one of our offers, but it is murder, you want to deal with 30 different providers is, is murder and implementing, each of them have would have a different process, each of them would have different requirements. Yes. And some of the older ones, I suppose, haven’t updated their platforms for a while, and they’re showing some age. And you see that, you know, and nothing to do with their API’s or not nothing to do with the with the lists and investments and whatever, the products, but the interfaces are somewhat lacking. Yeah, we all can, but it’s, you know, it’s hard to spend money on that, as well, like, I get it. Well buy, you know, if, if they face a, you know, a wall of implementation, if if all of a sudden yes, we’re allowed to go from 100 to 200 clients,

Clayton Daniel
can you imagine?

Paul Mann
Don’t don’t do anything about it now. I’m getting very excited. But um, yeah, I would love that. But, you know, you’ve got to decide that as a business, but yes, providers, suppliers, you know, product providers need to be having a Real good hard look at themselves if they have not already to say how do we, how do we help these advisors grow their businesses without, you know, unless they’re going to go and get advisors themselves, which they may, under the QA that that’s definitely going to be a factor part of this that Yeah, yeah. super funds will have advice channels, bigger, bigger advice channels, yes. than they currently do. So, you know, but but again, unless their systems are up to it. Yeah. How’s that gonna work? Yeah. Oh, look, it’s keeps us awake at night. Take this job hard.

Clayton Daniel
Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s the reason why the job exists. Right. He So So Thanks for exploring, sort of the QA are with me, I think that’s really interesting. What we’ve got ahead. Another big thing that I wanted to chat to you about, I thought you might have you know, this is, is so I’ll lay the setting. In case you’re not fully aware. But regardless of how much you know of this or not, I know you’re going to have an opinion anyway.

Paul Mann
So what do you mean, what do you say?

Clayton Daniel
Okay, so the CEO of Vanguard recently came out and said, that ethical ESG investing breaks the fiduciary duty, and so they don’t want to be a part of it anymore. The Black Rock, I think he’s named Larry Fink. Something too, that he recently did a, you know, an annual catch up, where over the last couple of years to an accelerating degree, he’s been talking about ESG not a word this time. If you look at something like Black Rocks ESG for only use this, because it’s kind of the biggest one in the world. BlackRock ESG fund, you know, via the Morningstar reporting shows huge amounts of inflows for a few years. And then since about 2021, certainly, by 2022. It’s going to outflows around about all sorts of during this whole time that America has kind of decided that they don’t want to pursue this or at least there’s there’s now a schism, right here we go see, I can see a woman up. In Australia, in Australia, there’s no schism, it’s headed in one direction in Europe, it’s headed in one direction and in America. The other direction. I used finding more clients care about ESG. And what happens if funds holders bolus end up moving away from these types of funds?

Paul Mann
Yeah, look, it’s a big part of the world. And it’s a big black hole to ESG. Right. And so you dive down there, and it’s just Oh, yeah, everything right? And what is it? You know, that’s this is the thing, that definition what is that? Yes. But yes, we are, you know, a few years ago, wouldn’t have even I didn’t have a client talk about even though every fund manager was in my ear saying SSHD. And I’m like, no one’s asking for it yet. They are more so now. Yeah. But again, I push back and say, Well, what does that mean for you? So we, I actually was the old ensemble, but the, you know, the x y. Portal? Yep. There’s a guy on there shared a questionnaire that, yeah, yeah, we talk and adapted. And that because I was like, that’s a great solution. Or because you’re asking, you know, when that’s what you guys do really well share, get people to share information. I was like, that’s really good. I’ll adapt that also, because the question you’ve got to put it back is what’s it mean to you? Now? Funnily enough, I mean, you can the cynical view would be that also the history is that people are moving away from it, because those small caps that are getting smashed in. So because it does, it’s, you know, I had a discussion with the client, and it’s like, yeah, you want to, you know, you’re not sure about mining and all that sort of stuff. And he wasn’t he, but I’m like, do you want to make money or not? Yeah, his wife was like, we want to make money. Yes. He’s like, look, so I, you know, just did a bit of a sort of, yeah, I went through and went through a process and did feel to some of the funds but also had a good conversation with this guy, also around the fact that, you know, people would see bhp as a, you know, dirty minor. Yes, but I see that the company is being at the forefront of changing and actually trying to be Yeah, clean as possible. World that

Clayton Daniel
Yeah. Well, it’s like your chances of changing a system from within the system, a much greater than changing system from right sided

Paul Mann
and, you know, those types of companies, you know, for the skews. Yeah, they’re, you know, what, what, they just kind of become Kodak. cuz like they need to adapt and go into logic on these things.

Clayton Daniel
You just, I believe sent a tanker around the world running on hydrogen. Absolutely. You know what I mean? Like, that’s awesome. And that that’s where the where the output. I believe I could be wrong here, but I believe the output from hydrogen is water. Absolutely. That’s, that’s amazing. Yep. pumping water,

Paul Mann
but it’s also very volatile gas. And yeah, remember the hidden Hindenburg? Right. So. So that’s, that’s the problem with it as well. Right? It is dangerous. It is a dangerous situation. So and this is what holds it back, you know, nuclear, like, that’s the other thing. Right? Are you looking at nuclear energy? Everyone’s scared of it. Because, yeah, the headlines, but, you know, realistically, that’s not a bad option as well. So, but you know, relevant of that, I think ESG will just become part of so. So what whilst it’s, you know, an cynically again, I would say, ESG has been a bit of a sticker, you know, something further BDMS to call around and have a chat to you about, and this is our new ESG fund, that’s great. Well done. Awesome work. I’m not gonna put money into it, because it’s hasn’t, you know, been around forever, you know, those sorts of things. So, you’ve got to take that with a grain of salt, but ESG will have a big place in investing in the future, as the next generation comes through that it is a non, you know, it’s just a no, no. What’s the word I’m trying to say? non negotiable. non negotiable? Yeah. non negotiable. Like, it just has to be part of it. Right? So that’s what’s interesting, right? green credentials need to be part of it. Yeah. But again, my question is, what is it? What does the SD mean to you, because it means something different to each person, it goes back to that document, we send that to the client, and then we get a good understanding of what they’re actually saying. Exactly. Until you get to the heart of what, what’s important to you about that? You know, is it gambling? Is it you know, what, what, yeah, there’s different

Clayton Daniel
writing, I think this is why it’s hard, because everyone’s ethics is so different. I mean, in today’s day and age, you could you could say, it’s, it’s unethical to have a board within with one gender on it with just one gender. Absolutely. And yet, another person could say it’s unethical to be selecting based on gender. And so whose ethics one is pragmatic, utilitarian ethics and the other and I learned all this through the ethics research that I did with the with the CFP and the other one is, so that day on topology, I believe it’s how he pronounced it. But the concept of like, it’s right, simply because it’s the right thing to do. So it’s almost circular referencing that nature. But it’s hard. And so it is interesting to go down the path like what does ESG and I was actually speaking to a fund manager and Managing Director of fund manager just on Friday. And they were saying that this concept of greenwashing, right, has just made everything even more complicated, because as soon as you started going down this path, then you get a rap on the knuckles and say, Oh, no, no, you didn’t take it seriously enough. And so,

Paul Mann
and it’s definitely happened. And obviously, we’ve seen fines and things like that. Right? And absolutely, that’s happened, right? And that,

Clayton Daniel
but at the same time, like this is my again, what does ESG mean? What does it mean to the fund manager? What does it mean to the advisor? What does it mean to the client? And what does it mean to the body of clients? Right? And so now I can see what’s starting to happen is, is companies are going to be taking a route where they don’t actually use the term ESG. So So for example, one of the funds that I was having a chat to was, they’re gonna start calling it a carbon conscious. This is the

Paul Mann
DRS arena and they’re

Clayton Daniel
like, Okay, we tried ESG we got wrapped over the knuckles, and then we found out it wasn’t prudent fiduciary Lea. So now we’re going to call this a consciously carbon conscious fund manager. I think this is just starting. That’s the first I’ve came across it.

Paul Mann
Yeah, and we’ve seen this over the last 50 years of evolving that this whole market funds management, you know, that whole market evolving over time, you know, on your time before there was funds, you know, so you know, really, you know, it was so, this is all part of marketing. This is all part of trying to niche down as well and then trying to differentiate themselves from the multitude of You know, fund managers that are out there and investment and there’s investment made there, they get calls every day. But look, essentially, my job is to filter out the crap for my clients. Right? And that’s all I do. I don’t get caught up in the latest and greatest, I’m not looking for that all I’m looking for is to get the return for my client that they need. Correct? Not the best can’t. Right, right. So you can’t, how much you’re willing to risk to aim. It’s about structure for me and our clients. It’s all about that we use you know, I’ve used the fund manager for 20 years, you know, that I know really well. And I know they’re just going to deliver the same thing every year. Right? Yeah, up and down, whatever. That’s going to happen in markets. But you know, we need to be conscious of what we do. Yeah. And how we carry ourselves and how we look after our clients needs. Yes. So ethically, responsibly, take that very, very seriously. You know, funnily enough, I was watching the Bernie Madoff

Clayton Daniel
the, the guy you’ve been using for 20 years?

Paul Mann
Don’t even that’s ridiculous. But you know, that that guy? Yeah, I had no reason to do what he did. But he,

Clayton Daniel
as a kid thing,

Paul Mann
that’s a really weird story that yeah, there’s a new thing on Netflix. I was watching. It was like, Yeah, cuz I’ve seen the movies and all that. But there’s a new one. Now. I was like, wow, this is

Clayton Daniel
I actually haven’t watched it.

Paul Mann
Yeah, so it’s all that’s Yeah, I think there’s ego. There’s all sorts of things. And I think he dug himself a hole he couldn’t get out of and didn’t want to go. Sorry, I’m not the genius.

Clayton Daniel
I underperform. Instead of doing that

Paul Mann
excuse was I just, I’m a people pleaser. I wanted to please everyone. This is all about you. But this, but you know, when we’ve seen these people who call themselves financial advisors, yes. You know, even locally, and there’s famous cases in Australia, yes. Who, you know, cause people to distrust us. And that’s where, you know, we probably go over and I know, most people would that who were left in advice now. Yes. That’s all we’ve got. Right. Yeah, our reputations and making sure that we deliver the right thing and have those tough conversations. If something’s goes wrong, you got to be on the front foot. Yeah. Getting the other way. Yep. So ESG becomes a noise. Yes. Yeah. That I tend to try and filter out. Yep. Right. Because I could go down that rabbit hole and be lost. Yes. Right. And trying to find, instead I talk to my clients, I understand what they need to get. And then I, my job is to get them there. Right. With the least risk possible. So ESG is something we need to understand because it’s everywhere. Yep. But it’s also something that we need to

Clayton Daniel
consider a noise. I like it. I got one last question. I got one last question for you. Okay, we’ve known each other for about 10 years, probably. Yeah. Yeah. And, and my question to you is, do you see financial planning? You know, you see financial planning, sort of in the way that I said, I’m away a lot of financial planners say in that it’s, it’s mine, it’s ours, right? Like, it’s the industry, it belongs to us, like we’re responsible for improving right? In the 10 years, or even longer, since we’ve known each other. And we’ve, and, and you’re as dedicated or as passionate about financial planning as any other financial plan and certainly as equally as myself. Do you see it headed in the right direction? Are you happy with where it’s headed? A dare I even ask, Are you happy that it’s where it is compared to where it was? 10 years ago?

Paul Mann
Yes, and no. Am I am I am I comfortable? That I’m still an advisor, and proud to be Yeah, okay. And I’m not going anywhere, right? Obviously, plenty of people are laughs and I don’t blame them at all. You know, when people have got different, different lives to live on, I’m still here, you know. And I’m not going anywhere. I love being an advisor. I love interaction with clients. I like solving those problems that, you know, that’s essentially I found this niche, you know, this this thing called advice 2023 years ago, and it’s changed so much. Is it going to get better? I think it is. Yeah, I think it is.

Clayton Daniel
Or has it gotten better? No. In the last 10 years, well, hasn’t it? No, it’s got

Paul Mann
no in terms of doing the job. Yes, got a whole lot harder, make a whole lot harder.

Clayton Daniel
It’s got harder bit harder. You say that what it delivers to clients has improved

Paul Mann
100% Okay, so clients have never had a better awesome, never had a better ride. They have clear delineation of who they are, who their advisor is who they work for, that advisors have never been more independent. To use that word these days. I’ve never have been so unaligned, you know, or as we call it product agnostic. You get your turn up to an advisor and you are getting structural financial advice. You’re not getting a product. Yeah, you’re not, you know, and clients still ask about that. Well, I’m not gonna be stuck in a product. Am I? No, it’s not about that. Right. It’s not about that this is all about structural advice for a consumer who comes in? Yeah, they want to buy products are secondary, if not third, third round down the road. Right. Yeah, that’s a product fall out of the way. If you get the advice, right. And the structure, right. The products become self evident. And they’ve never been to clients have never had a better in terms of the cost of advice. Yes. Whilst Iran says it’s expensive, and yes, it is. But advisors aren’t making more money. They’re probably making less than they used to. Right. Yeah. Because there’s no kickbacks. There’s no super overrides. There’s no, you know, there’s none of that sort of stuff. Right. You’re not getting fun funded at the back ends, right? Yes. So it’s very clear. It’s, you know, who’s getting paid what they’re getting paid how they’re getting paid. So I think in terms of consumers and their protection and what they’re getting, and, you know, the people left dedicated professionals, like we’re all in this world, how many of us have a left 15,000? If that? Were in, right, otherwise, you would have gone a long time ago. So I don’t think the end. I think the people have never had a better in terms of comprehensive holistic financial advice. Yes. The gap in terms of that is the rest of the people who don’t need a full financial plan, don’t want to pay, you know, $5,000, or whatever it costs for playing these days. Yeah. Who just need a little bit of help? Yeah. Which, for me, the upsetting part is that, you know, I had a weird business, I was part of a business that did that we had 20,000 clients, which is ridiculous. Yeah. But that that was about helping as many as you could, right. That’s the gap that I’m so I don’t think that the world is better in the advice? Well, I think we needed to go through the pain. There were institutions that were obviously doing the wrong thing and didn’t understand what advice is. That’s the big thing, I think, and even the politicians and regulators, not a great handle all the time on what advice actually is and what it constitutes, we know. Because it’s, it’s the most personal financial relationship you’ll have, right? Because advisors need to understand you at a very deep level, to make sure that we’re fulfilling your need.

Clayton Daniel
I wonder if we should put together some kind of strategy

Paul Mann
like that

Clayton Daniel
anyway out and does your tax, you know, politicians all get financial planning?

Paul Mann
why they’ve got defined benefits right there. They’ve fallen? cynical? Yeah. Yeah. So it will get to they get the pensions if they’ve been there long enough. And yeah, government cars and things like that. So it’s, and it’s very, I’d love to, to educate people on how it all works. But, you know, it’s, it’s not a mortgage broker comes in and solves a problem and then say later, right, and I’m not having a goal that like, that’s, that’s the business model. And, and that works, right. And they do a great job. And they’ve, you know, keeping the banks, you know, honest, and that that was the whole thing, right? And that’s true. That’s what’s happened, that whole business has been disrupted, you know, 10 years ago, was 10% of the business. Now, it’s 80% of the business, right? You just go and talk to a broker, right? You don’t go to the bank, tax agents, accountants do your tax structural, even though the ATO is probably their biggest competitor these days, but you know, but they really need to understand you and your base motivations and what you’re trying to achieve in your life and what you know, and that the number one ticket for retirees in terms of our advice, is that slide we show them at the end that shows them how long their money is going to last. Right?

Clayton Daniel
Yeah, that’s it.

Paul Mann
That’s that’s the money shot, right? That’s, that’s what it is. Right? You get that there. If you spend this much. Your money is going to last till your 110 Yes, the relief that’s that’s all I care about. Yeah. Am I going to be okay, right. That is what we do. That moment when they go Oh, thank god. Oh, you know, I’m really hate my daughter. I’ve got one time I hate my job. What I’m doing. I want to retire Can I guess we worked out and here it is. Wow. Yes. You can you know, those? That’s advice. Yes. That emotional, you know, eliciting that emotional response from people. That’s the impact we have. That’s the impact. The tools we do it. Yeah. That’s the That’s what we do. That has never really changed and advice. If you have been a proper advisor, that’s what you’ve always that’s where you get your little kick. That’s where your highs, you know, that’s really nailed that one. That was good. You know, yes. That hasn’t changed. That’s why I got into advice. I’ve seen it all. I’ve lasted a year. It’s evolved. so much. I just pray and hope that the industry gets a break, because we’ve just been smashed. Right. And we’ve been blamed for the ills of the world for a very long time. You know, it’s always the advisors fault. We’re just the end the end, right? Hasn’t there’s been advisors doing the wrong thing, but it’s not essentially been a, like you’re saying, you know, it’s not essentially, we own it. But we haven’t run it. Right. Yeah, yeah, I just hope that come into the, into the future. And that, you know, we’ve got it down to this is all that’s left, we’re in, we’ve all passed out whatever we need to do our exams, all these sorts of things. I just hope that we get the respect from the politicians from the the regulators that we get from our clients, we currently very well speak but from the rest of the world that say, Hey, let’s just let them get on with life. Yes, finds different ways of doing things, not try and restrict them. Because that’s been a big issue, right? Yes, the SOA is still the worst document in history that we have to produce, the people don’t read, essentially, you know, that’s an, it’s an ass covering exercise. But if we can, if you allow some movement and take the restrictions off, people will innovate, people will find different ways of doing things, people will improve advisors, you know, and consider good business people. And we’re also you know, smart, we want to solve these problems for people. So I think there will be innovation, the more that you squeezed down in industry, the less innovation there is, so I’m hoping that there will be more innovation there will be more money spent and that advisors will be left to do what they do every day. You know, that’s my hope for our for our beautiful sector. And I love I love advice. Yeah, it’s just sometimes you know,

Clayton Daniel
Mate, this was everything and more I could have hoped for thank you so much.

Paul Mann
Always good catching up, mate. No problems at all.