#60 Amy Florian – Transcript

Louis van der Merwe
Welcome to another episode of Financial Planners, South Africa. Today in the studio I have with me, Amy Florian. Amy is joining me all the way from Illinois, in Chicago. And he is the CEO of Corgenius. And Amy came across my path when I was recommended her book no longer awkward from someone in the financial transition as training group. And I must say that work has been life changing. Amy, I’m so glad for you to have you here tonight and share some of your learnings through through deep experiences as well with our audience.

Amy Florian
I am delighted to be here. Thank you for having me, me,

Louis van der Merwe
I maybe want to start before your TED Talk. Because for a lot of people there seem to be life. Before TED talk in the life after Ted Talk and the early days of your financial services career. Can you tell us a little bit about that? How How did that start out?

Amy Florian
Well, I’m actually not a financial service professional. But I grew up in a family of financial service professionals. My father was a an insurance agent, my brother invested pension funds, another two other brothers worked for insurance companies. There’s there’s just a lot of financial services in my family. I myself spent the first part of my career in grief support, not in financial services, because I didn’t know there was a need. I was working in other other aspects of the market. It was in 2008. When I have a friend who’s a financial advisor, he was over for dinner one night. And he said, Amy, I’ve never asked you professional questions, but I really need to I have a client, his wife of over 40 years died. He’s coming into the office, when he calls on the phone, you know, normally I would pick up the phone and say, Hi, how are you? He said, Hi, how are you? I can’t ask him that. I don’t know what to say. And so I just let it go to voice message said I can’t do that. I don’t want to do that. Plus, he’s coming into the office. And I don’t know what to say. Can you coach me through this? So I coached him through that and a couple of other client interactions. And he said, Oh my gosh, do you realize every financial professional in the world needs to know what you know. And that was the impetus to found core genius. Core genius core is the Latin root for the word heart and genius is your brain. So core genius is our tagline adding heart to the brains of business. I started teaching financial professionals what they need to know, in order to not let those calls go to the voicemail in order to not unintentionally alienate grieving clients in order to build those really strong relationships so that they keep their own book of business and also gain business from others who just have never been taught and don’t know any better. So it’s been it’s been tremendously gratifying and the need has grown and grown and grown in financial services. As we were talking about before we started recording financial, the financial profession is not just about products and numbers anymore. It is very relationship centric. Clients can get all the financial data that you have, they can get all the financial and now also so that you can have, they can do a Monte Carlo simulation on the internet, if all they want is portfolio management, they’ll get a robo advisor, they come to you because they don’t want that they want a relationship. They want a flesh and blood person who gets them and who understands them, and who can walk them through whatever life throws at them. And they’ll switch until they find it. And when they find it, if that’s you, then you’ve got a client for life, when you can walk people through the toughest times of their lives. You’ve got that client, you’ve got their family, you’ve got their friends, I facilitate support groups, they talk to each other, you know, I have I have a whole field of of thanatology, that’s I’m an expert in death loss, grief, aging, and transition. I’ve worked with over 2000 grieving people, I can tell you what they wish you would say, I’ve taught graduate classes I’ve written I’ve taught all over. So it’s a it’s a tremendously gratifying profession for me, because it makes such a difference. When people know what to do when they’re not just picking up what everybody else does and perpetuating the mistakes.

Louis van der Merwe
Amy, you mentioned there that people will continue switching until they find someone that they’re comfortable? Is that what we see in this statistic of, you know, 80% of widowed people will look for a new financial planner, what do you think is the root of that problem?

Amy Florian
Yeah, I think that’s the case. It’s, you know, when people read statistics like that, they tend to assume that because financial services has traditionally been a rather male oriented profession, that the the professional, the advisor, or the lawyer, whoever they are, just didn’t build a relationship with the wife, they only worked with the husband. So if he dies, she’s got no connection there. Why would she stay. But what I’ve heard from so many people, and what I experienced myself, is that the first thing that they look for is somebody who knows what they’re doing, somebody after them, somebody who who knows how to invest money, and what they’re doing. But if that person doesn’t know what to say to them, and I had the experience, when I was widowed, my financial advisor knew how to invest the money, he didn’t have a clue what to say to me. I stayed with him for a while because he didn’t know how to invest the money until I found another financial advisor who also knew what to do with the money. He knew how to invest it. But he knew what to say to me. He asked good questions, he really wanted to know the answer. He seemed to have a clue what I was going through. I mean, the way I put it to people is that by the time I left his side, I felt like a person, not a number in a portfolio. And you want to guess how long before it was how long it was, before I switched. I mean, boom, of course, I switched to somebody who knew what they were doing, but also knew me as a person, not a number in a portfolio. And when I’m hearing the same thing, when I facilitate the support groups, they talk to each other, they ask each other, where are you getting your financial advice, this guy just treats me like I’m an idiot, or this guy just doesn’t even understand or this woman? It doesn’t it’s not it’s not specific to man or woman. It’s just people have never been taught what to do, what to say and how to accompany people. We don’t we don’t people grieving people, people in general, they’re looking for more now. And they will switch if they find somebody who knows what to do and knows what to say. They’ll go to them.

Louis van der Merwe
Amy, can we talk a little bit about that period when your husband’s name was John right? When John Yes, passed away and when he died in that car accident? What was the things top of mind for you at that point? Yeah, if you can share a little bit, yes through that.

Amy Florian
But at that point, I was 25 years old. We had a seven month old baby boy, John, Kiss Me Goodbye that morning to go to a business meeting three hours out of town. And that night on his way home, another car slammed broadside into his and he was killed instantly. I was absolutely devastated. I didn’t know where to turn. I didn’t know what to do. Thankfully, my dad was an insurance agent. And he made sure that we had life insurance, especially when Carl was born. Carl is my baby. Especially when Carl was born, he made sure that we had life insurance. So I did not have to run out and start working immediately and find childcare for Carl. I was able to take time that I needed, but I never had a financial advisor before. That’s when I got referred to this gentleman who had a fine reputation for investing money but didn’t have a clue what to say to me. I I didn’t know the first thing about investing money. I knew quite a bit about insurance because of growing up with my dad. In fact, I started my public speaking career teaching general agents How to Sell EF Hutton, universal life insurance. I’m dating myself, you know, EF Hutton, I don’t know who quit listening, but they don’t exist anymore. And younger people may not even know who they are. But I knew quite a bit about life insurance, I didn’t know how to invest money. So I needed somebody I could trust to make sure the money was going to last as long as it could to make sure that I could stay in the house that we bought two weeks before John died, to make sure that we had food to make sure. Well, let me let me explain it this way. When tragedy happens, we get pushed down to survival level. That’s why we talk about, we sometimes call it widow fog or the fog of grief, this sort of my gosh, I can’t concentrate, I can’t think I don’t even know what’s going on, is because our brains get flooded with with cortisol, it’s a little bit of cortisol is a good thing. It’s what gets you up in the morning, too much pushes you down to survival level, you’re just wondering how you can eat, how you can sleep, how you can get what you need to get through life? How can you put one foot in front of the other? So whenever there’s a tragedy, those are the first needs that people have? And those are the first concerns that they have those need to be addressed before anything else. And then of course, I was also concerned, you know, is Carl ever going to be able to go to college? When will I have to go back to work? What, how do I do this? I I didn’t know. And at the same time, I was craving support for my grief. But nobody professionals or not. Nobody knew what to do. Nobody knew what to say. I had all kinds of people who loved me loved me very much. I’m one of 10 children. My everybody, my parents, my siblings, my friends, everybody loved me very much. Nobody knew what to do. Nobody knew what to say, part of the satisfaction I get out of what I do now is I’m helping people have what I didn’t have when John died, I’m helping them have those supportive people around them. It’s getting there. I wish I could teach everybody in the world. Because so many people still have the experience of folks saying that well intentioned, but hurtful things or or just unhelpful, even if they’re not hurtful, they’re well intentioned, but they don’t help. So I’m trying to help people have what I didn’t have when John died, I’m trying to help point them in the right direction. And certainly my experience in the financial profession with my financial advisor, I’ve heard that same kind of story over and over and over again, whether somebody is widowed at 25 as I was, or they’re widowed at 45, or 65, or 85, the people in my support group span the whole range. And I hear the same kind of story over and over again, Kathy, did that answer your question? Or did it

Louis van der Merwe
it did absolutely. Think what stands out for me is that this is actually something you need to work at. It doesn’t just come for some people, it might come naturally. But these are elements that you can, you know, understand cognitively. But you can also show up emotionally to support someone I want to read a section from your book where you mentioned, grief is the hallway between the room one must leave, and the room that awaits, and I love that almost limbo. This is what we’re going through. But there’s something different that’s waiting behind that, that door.

Amy Florian
Yeah, it’s when when somebody you love dies, or, you know, grief is not just from death. Grief is triggered whenever there’s a break in an attachment. So you might, it might be a person, it might be a sentimental object or your home, it might be a function, something that you that you want to be able to keep doing. And you can’t, it might be a dream, it might be a role you have like when people retire and their role changes or during COVID When people had become in home teachers to the kids because all the schools closed down. You know, anytime, any of these things, if we like our life, we’re familiar with it, we’re attached to it. And we have to let go of it and go forward and learn how to live without it. That always triggers grief. Some of them are little grief. Some of them are big griefs. If we don’t handle the little griefs, they build up and become a grace. But in every situation, when you have to leave something, someone behind, you get kicked out of a room that you appreciated that you want. You wanted to stay you get kicked out of that room and the doors locked behind you. You can’t go back. So now You’re standing in the hallway. And there’s a whole set of other doors in that hallway, and you don’t know where you’re going yet you don’t know where your new home is going to be. So you as you have the energy and the strength to do it, you might crack open a door and stick a foot in. You might say, no, no, no go to a different door. Maybe one of them seems kind of attractive. So you move one of your chairs in, but you’re just testing it out. And well, maybe that works. Maybe it doesn’t. If it works, you move some more furniture. And if it doesn’t work, you go back out. You’re trying to find out what that different future is going to be like, you lost the future you had planned, and you haven’t yet replaced it with new plans with a new future. It’s still awaits. It’s there. But it takes intention and work, grief, it’s hard work takes intention and work to get there. And it’s the more people around you, that can support you in that, that understand you that can help you keep walking toward that new future, the easier it’s going to be. But I do love that image it makes it makes a lot of sense to people.

Louis van der Merwe
Me How do we support healthy grieving, because what I’m hearing is that a lot of people feel guilty for actually grieving or it feels like this process should just finish, you know, it’s been six months, it’s been a year it’s been whatever amount of time and now, society expects me to carry on with my life yet. The reality is that that loss is still the

Amy Florian
That’s right. Grief takes a lot longer than we think. It is not over in a day, a week, a month a year. It’s just not the change, at least for significant grief. So the change is too vague. I wasn’t over my grief at the first anniversary of John’s death, when it’s a significant loss like that when your your home burns down when a spouse dies or a child dies, or there’s been an divorce. The first year is a year of bad anniversaries. You’re always stealing yourself for the next first, the first birthday, the first wedding anniversary, the first anniversary of the death, the first holiday season with that empty chair, the first Valentine’s Day the first all these different things that we steal ourselves for all during that first year. We’re doing a lot of letting go. But we’re not doing a lot of building the new yet. People who are most supportive are people who get that, who can be there. Let me give you one example. Let’s say a woman is widowed. And her husband’s birthday is coming up. What do you do? I’ll tell you what everybody around her does absolutely nothing. And we make excuses. In all I’m sure she wants to be alone on a day like, No, she doesn’t. Or why don’t want to make her cry. As if she’s not. Or my favorite one. Oh, I don’t want to remind her what day it is. Those dates are burned into a grieving person’s memory for the rest of their lives. But people don’t know what to say. So they don’t say anything. They’d rather not say anything than say the wrong thing. So they don’t contact them. They don’t support them. What if instead? And financial professionals can do this too? What if instead you just give a call? Hi, I’m just call her to check in because I know it’s Jim’s birthday today. So what do you have planned? Are you going to go to the cemetery you’re going to get together with family or are you just going to cocoon in bed all day? What’s it like for you today? On Jim’s birthday? Oh my gosh, priceless. Or if you if you aren’t comfortable, you just can’t get yourself to say something because you don’t know what to say and you haven’t practiced it and it’s awkward for you. Send a card. Now I can’t take away the pain of a day like today but I hope you can at least enjoy a cup of your favorite coffee with the enclosed gift card. Or I bet you’re finding on Jim’s birthday people talk about anybody and everybody except Jim. Well, I hope you can take this gift card grab a friend go have coffee and tell stories about Jim all morning. Jim is worth remembering. We’re remembering with you. Especially today. On the first anniversary of the death a little bottle of their favorite South African wine or their favorite beer. We’re raising a glass together with you today. We will never forget Jim. Wow. And those are priceless touches and people feel supported through their grief when you do that. When you’re continuing to acknowledge those days when you continue to ask good questions and check in without To expecting them to be over it, and that you were spot on in our society. Well, wait a minute, it’s been two months, can’t you put this behind you and get on with life now?

Louis van der Merwe
Clock’s ticking.

Amy Florian
What’s the matter with you, you’re still crying. Let’s take you to a doctor get you some medication. People are told to shut it down to quit being a Debbie Downer. I don’t know if that’s a phrase you use in South Africa, but we do in the States. You know, put it behind you get on with life, close that door, get over it. What’s the matter with you? That’s not right. What people forget, is that we never put it behind us and get on with life. Now, you can’t take somebody you love, put them in a convenient box marked past and leave them back there while you go on. No, you do have to let go of what can no longer be, you’re not going to get their hug, you’re not going to hear their laugh, not in person, you’re not going to be able to do the things you had planned that you wanted to do. You have to let go of what can no longer be. But you create memories, you create stories, and you carry them with you for the rest of your life. You carry their life with you, you carry their love with you, the love never dies, you carry who you have, I am a different person. Because John loved me. I’ve gone on I’ve healed. But I will never forget John, nobody can ever take that away from me, I still say his name, I still tell the stories. He’s a part of me. We’re not supposed to forget, we’re supposed to carry them with us. For the rest of our lives. If you really want to support someone who’s grieving you support that. You’re not afraid to say the name. I sort of referred to this before. It’s very shortly after the services. People talk about anybody and everybody except the person who died. They don’t want to mention it. They don’t want to make somebody cry. They don’t want to rip a scab off. Do you know how comforting it is for people to hear the name? Here in the States, it’s been over 20 years since 911 happened. But on the anniversary of 911. Every anniversary of 911. We read every single name. And the mantra is never forget, never forget. What if it’s been 20 years since your clients spouse died or child died or parent died? And on that anniversary, they want to say the name and show videos and tell the stories. And everybody says what? It’s been 20 years? What’s the matter with you? I mean, can we have as much compassion for our corporate sense of grief as we do our for our individual sense of grief as we do for corporate sense of grief, we’re not supposed to forget, let me give you another image. I take it you like the visual visual images because you’d like to the hallway. This this image, which has resonated with so many people, this comes from Gregory Floyd, his six year old son Johnny was killed in his front yard when a car jumped the curb and hit his kids while they were playing. I mean, oh my gosh. Greg said, even in that initial instance, that deep dark sobbing grief, every once in a while he would realize he was smiling, or a laugh would escape his lips. And his first reaction was, how dare I know Johnny, he said no, don’t do that. Those those moments of joy, those moments of laughter, that’s what sustains us through the grief. And the image he used. He said those are the bright splashes of color on the gray palette of grief, the bright splashes of color on the gray palette of grief. Now as you do the hard work of grief, over time, the image reverses itself. As I said, grief is hard work. To face those tough emotions. We don’t want to they hurt. We don’t want to face the void that can never be filled in the same way again, or the loneliness or the pain. We don’t want to face them. But to face those tough emotions and resolve them to to assimilate that loss into our life, to accommodate our life to it to let go of what can no longer be to build something that wasn’t there before. And grief is hard work. And it takes a long time. But over time if you do the hard work of grief. Then eventually those times of sadness and crying they become less frequent and less intense. The first time you go to bed at night realize you didn’t cry all day.

Oh my gosh, what a milestone. And then it gets to be a week and it gets to be a month. And at the same time. Those moments of joy Those moments of laughter, they become more frequent and more intense, until eventually, the times of sadness and crying become the gray splotches of color on the bright palette of life. And that’s what healing looks like, life is still good, it’s still wonderful, it’s still worth living, it still holds promise and joy and newness, and it’s worth it to do the hard work of grief and move into that future. But at the same time, the gray never entirely disappears, because you never forget. Because you take everything that has happened to you in your life, you take it with you, you take the person who died with you, you take that divorce experience with you, you take that diagnosis, you take that that house burning down, you take that getting laid off from your job, you take out everything that you have experienced, you take it with you into your life, and build something out of it, but for the rest of your life, because you carry it with you, every once in a while you’re gonna get ambushed, you know, and it might be, it might be things that you expect, oh, here’s the holidays, again, with the empty chair. I always miss him so much at the holidays. Or it might be you know, a woman in the widowed support group just had a daughter who got married, and her daddy wasn’t there to walk her down the aisle. Another, another person in the support group just had a grandchild born. But he wasn’t there to hold it. They it might be things that you that catch you off guard, or it might be things like that, that you know are coming up. My little baby boy, Carl, seven months old when John died, he grew up. And when he walked down the aisle to marry the woman he loved, and his daddy wasn’t there. Why do you think I didn’t cry? It had been over two decades since John died. But do you think I didn’t cry? I wanted John to see his baby boy walk down the aisle to marry the woman he loved. And then my baby boy had a baby boy. And he named him. Oh my gosh, do you think I didn’t cry? Are you kidding me? We carry them with us for the rest of our lives. And on occasion, you’re still going to have some sad times you’re going to get ambushed. There’s things that are going to come up, there’s things that are going to happen and you just wish they were there. There’s never a final closure. There’s never a point where you stop missing them all together, or you stop wondering what life would be like if they’d still be alive. When you never ever shed a tear again, that doesn’t have people want closure. closure? Can’t you close the door? No, no, you can’t. You don’t have to. As much as people in society tell us to. That’s one of the things Louis That’s one of the you know, when I say we pick up what everybody else doesn’t perpetuate the mistakes. We pick up these myths like grief should be over, something’s wrong with you. If you’re still grieving after six months, something’s wrong with you. If you still want to remember after a couple of years, something’s wrong with you. It’s more like, I don’t know what to do with you. Because when you’re crying, I feel out of control. And I don’t like being out of control. And it’s uncomfortable for me. So would you just quit crying please. Or you remind me of my mortality, because it could have been me, I don’t like facing my mortality. I don’t want thinking I don’t want to think that somebody I love could die too. So just stop bringing it up with you, or just so many things that make us uncomfortable, about grief, about death. We’re very, very uncomfortable with it. In our day. I mean, in general, in our society, we’ve outsourced death, people who are sick. And I’m not saying that these facilities are bad things, they’re wonderful things. And we need them because of all our technology and everything now. But when people are sick, they go to a hospital, or a nursing home or a rehab center there. And it’s not like it used to be where people would people would get sick at home with the whole family around and all the kids knew it too. And, and they would die at home. And there would be services in the home and the church or the synagogue was right there next to the you know, in the neighborhood, and that’s where they’d go for their formal services

and death was a normal, expected natural part of life. Everybody knew that everybody died. Life expectancy has increased so much. And technology has developed so much that we somehow started to believe that we don’t have to die. And in fact, if somebody I love dies, there’s someone who ought to be sued. And when we think we’re not we we say we’re going to do Yeah, everybody says they’re going to die. How many people actually believe that how many live knowing that they’re going to die? How many people really face that reality? It’s uncomfortable. And we’re not taught how. And we’re not taught that it’s even necessary. And so we don’t deaf has become this unexpected, unnatural interruption to normal life. That shouldn’t happen. And therefore, we don’t talk about our griefs. We don’t talk about our experiences, we don’t share, get a bunch of get a bunch of parents together, you can maybe relate to this, they all talk about toilet training. I know you ever one and a half year old, all these parents will talk about toilet training, and they’ll share their tips and they’ll support each other and all yeah, my kid did that too. Or, Oh, I didn’t have to face that. But maybe you should try this. And we’ll share more about things like that. But two people talk about the miscarriage they had people don’t share about the miscarriage and what that’s like and yeah. Oh, me. And I felt that too. Yeah, I had people say, Oh, you’re young and healthy, you can try again, didn’t you just want to slap them. We don’t talk about our grief experiences. So we don’t learn what to say we don’t learn what to do. And it really does become this very uncomfortable, hairy, big monster that nobody wants to go near grieving people know, they make others uncomfortable. And it’s not a fun place to be. They so often feel like they have to paste on the smiley, smiley mask, you know? And how are you? How do you think I am? Really? How are you? Are you kidding me? Besides, how are you? I mean, grief is all over the place. Maybe I woke up this morning and felt better than I had since the services. But then at 10 o’clock, that song came out, oh my gosh, I just sat back down. But then I had lunch with friends and it built it. But then the afternoon dragged on for me how am I am up and down and back and forth and all over the place. But nobody wants to hear that. And every grieving person knows it. So they’re just gonna say I’m fine. Thanks. Thanks for asking. I’m fine. Doesn’t do either one of you any good at all? Amy, all right, talking and talking and talking.

Louis van der Merwe
It’s, it’s wonderful, because this stuff, it’s so important that we talk about this, I read a quote, I don’t think it was in your book. But someone mentioned that. This is like the black part of a mirror that allows you to see yourself. And that was so true. When you think about it, you know, actually dealing with it, it actually brings maybe a bit of urgency and a bit of clarity to life and the work that financial planners do. I want to talk about prolonged grief, because I’ve read that. I think it’s in the DSM six, they are now talking about actually, you know, having this term prolonged grief. What’s your take on that? Is there something is, is there too long time to grieve? Or is there an healthy grief,

Amy Florian
there is so much debate in my field about the DSM and about classifying it that way. The reason for classifying it that way is because some a small percentage of people, less than 10% of people really, really struggle with their grief to the extent that they need professional help, or medication to get through it. Over 90% of people manage to get through grief and get some purpose in their life back, they might still be sad, but they get their life back and get through the grief. But for the percentage of people that that can’t that become non functional. The reason that’s the reason that it’s in the DSM so that insurance will pay for it, so that they can get the treatment that they need. At the same time. The debate is because we don’t want to pathologize grief. There are many, for instance, there’s many overlapping experiences between grief and clinical depression, the intense sadness, the feeling that I just don’t enjoy anything, and I have no purpose in life, and I don’t know who I am anymore. And you know, that kind of every grieving person sometimes just doesn’t even want to get out of bed. But usually they managed to do it. It’s the people who don’t manage to do it. Who can’t get out of bed, who can’t function who stopped taking care of themselves. They maybe they were always very well appointed and hair done and makeup and everything and they if they start going places, disheveled and they don’t care what they look like and

maybe they maybe they either lose a lot of weight or gain a lot of weight rapidly. They’re out of control. They can’t function in their life. If they reach a point where when you do the hard work of grief The goal is to progress to a Eventually, like the like the image, to eventually have more of the color come back into life and have the sadness and crying recede if we get to months and months or years later, and that grief is just as intense as it was, it’s still the gray palette of grief. And there might be an occasional little splash. But really, this person is living in the gray palette of grief, and they’ve never gotten out of it. They do need professional help to do that. But it’s not very, it’s not that frequent. There’s not that many who need it. And if they if they do need it, hopefully they can get the support that they need. At the same time, people getting through grief are often really benefited by having people to talk to, you know, I facilitate support groups. It’s wonderful in our death denying society where nobody knows what to say, it’s wonderful to come into a group and have everybody nodding their heads. Oh, yeah, I get it. Yeah, that’s really helpful as people are trying to get through their grief. Some people are not a support group person, they don’t want to talk to a group of people, they want to talk one on one. Some people want to do both. But it’s really helpful to talk to people who don’t have the baggage that sometimes family or friends have, who don’t have the we call it the rush to comfort the instinct that I have to fix this, I have to cheer you up, I have to make you better. I I’m not a good friend, if I’m not if you’re not smiling by the time I leave. That’s, that’s why I’m coming to see you so I can make you smile we get, we get this urge to cheer people up. Sometimes we need a professional who knows what they’re doing, who understands that? No, their job is not to cheer you up. Their job is not to fix you, they can’t fix it anyway, they can’t bring that person back, it can be very helpful to have a grief coach or a counselor to talk to to go to a support group to have people who get it and who understand. That’s different than the clinical diagnoses, where for instance, clinical depression, it’s a it’s a chemical imbalance in your brain. And we do have medications that can help correct that chemical imbalance, perhaps it’ll be a long term thing, perhaps it’ll only be a short term thing. And then you can wean off of it, or sometimes grieving people have so much trouble sleeping, every grieving person has trouble sleeping, either the grief is so exhausting, that they fall asleep, the minute their head hits the pillow, but then they wake up at two o’clock in the morning, and they can’t get back to sleep. Or they lay their head on the pillow. And that hamster wheel is just going on in their brain, they just can’t sleep. There are other strategies to try to help with that, like journaling or writing or things like that. But if people get to the point where they just aren’t sleeping, and it’s affecting their physical health, they can’t function during the day, maybe they do need sleeping medication, maybe they do need to be under the care of a professional. Those are the kinds of things that we look for in terms of recommending professional. I mean, like a psychiatrist truly professional advice, or trauma informed counseling. If it’s a, someone sees their loved one get shot in front of their face, or they are walking down the stairs with their loved one their loved one trips and tumbles down the stairs and they’re, you know, land on their head and they die right there in front of them. Or there have been many people in the support groups where the person in their family had a heart attack or a stroke right there in the house, maybe they were even eating dinner, a woman recently eating dinner with her husband, all of a sudden he seized up and put his head down and died. There can be very traumatic events, that people are really helped by talking to a traumatic trauma informed counselor or psychologist that can be really helpful. Basically, we have to go for the level of help we need. And putting grief into the DSM is a way to encourage people to get the help they need if they really really are struggling long term with their grief. Just be aware that that’s an only a small percentage of the population.

Louis van der Merwe
So I mean, for me, it sounds like it’s just it’s really important to have someone on your on your network or part of your team that you can refer to when you’re working with clients as a as a financial planner. One thing that often comes up is balancing someone’s need for financial objectives, you know, what’s the right thing to do from a from a financial or money perspective versus what’s the right thing for them? And I know this is a topic that we can talk an hour about, but I want to maybe hear from you. What are the success stories release where people have maybe not taken the traditionally correct financial path. But I’ve taken the path where they put their life first. Have you heard any of those stories from the people you work with that stand out for you,

Amy Florian
when you have a prospect come into the office? If the first thing you start with is, okay, how much money do you have? How much is your house worth? What do you want to do with your money? If you start off with money talk, you’re going to lose that prospect? If you start off with, what do you see your future looking like? What would you like your money to be able to support? Do you have kids that you want to send to college? Do you have vacations you want to take what are your What are your objectives in your life, and then we’ll talk about the money and how we can try to help that support, support it. That’s what prospects want to hear. Same things happen. Same thing happens. Because when there’s, for instance, someone’s widowed or there’s a death in their family, those dreams and plans get shattered. Okay, at that point. First of all, there’s some financial things that have to happen on a schedule, there’s trust funding deadlines that have to be met, there’s a state tax filings that have to be done. There’s some things that have to happen on the schedule, I always recommend that financial planners make a list of the things that have to happen on a schedule, and say to their clients, okay, there are some things that must happen. Here they are, I know what they are, and I’ve got your back, I’m not gonna let anything fall through the cracks, you don’t have to worry about it, I will be in touch with you anything that anytime one of these things that has to happen, has to happen, we’re going to make sure together, that none of these things fall through the cracks. And all of this gets done. At the same time. You’re grieving right now. And you remember, the cortisol I told you about pushes your mind down to survival level, your upper level cognition is not a sign of weakness, it just is a physical, physiological reality. So you can say to clients, at the same time that we get the things done that have to be done, you know, it’s a good idea to wait, your blur, your brain is flooded with chemicals and hormones that that aren’t allowing you to think as clearly as you normally would. You’re gonna get all kinds of suggestions for what to do. You know, what if somebody brings you a suggestion? And it sounds like it could be good, bring them in? Let’s talk about I’m your independent advocate here. If somebody is suggesting something, bring them in, let’s talk about it and see whether that’s the best thing to do. Maybe it is maybe it’s not? Or if it is the best thing to do? Is it the best thing to do it right now? Or will you lose anything, if you wait just a little bit, until your brain is clearer, and you’re better able to make these decisions yourself? I know Susan Bradley teaches about the decision free zone where you take your time. But if you if you as a financial professional say, Well, okay, we’ve got the things that had to be done right away, done. Now, you call me when you’re ready to talk about the rest. Bye bye. Because all these people are going to be bringing them suggestions and ideas. And you should do this you should make this loan, you should give this gift you should do this for me. You should invest in Bitcoin, you should invest in this stock, you should do this, you should get an annuity you should. And they’re often lost. But if you’re not there, if you’re not there on a regular basis, checking in with them, you don’t have to check in on the business, you just check in and say, hey, it’s been two weeks since we talked, I’m just checking in, has everybody gone home yet? Or what’s it what’s going on in your life right now? Or you just check in? And instead of saying how are you? Which is a lousy question. You say I’m just checking in. So what kind of a day is it for you today? Is this an update? Or a down day? Or an all over the place day? Oh, now they know you really want to know the answer because you didn’t ask the standard question. And they know you have a clue. Because you understand this might be an update, or this might be a downgrade, or I might be all over the place. You’re building the relationship as you go. And then after you do that, then you can say, Has anybody been coming to you with ideas on what to do with your money? Is there anything that’s that you’re worried about at night? What are you thinking about in terms of your money that I could talk through with you? Where are you with that? You keep checking in you keep opening the door, you keep asking the questions, and staying in touch with them. And that builds trust and loyalty. And I’ve seen that you ask for success stories. There. I’ve seen that over and over again, where the financial advisors who are there who send a note or a card and write good things in them who Ask good open Invitational questions who stay in touch, who position themselves as the independent advocate, that’s going to get them through this one step at a time. You got to another thing I tell people to say is, tell your clients, you got to rely on the people who get it. We get it here. We know your grief is not over in a day or a week or a month, we’re here for you for the long haul. We’re here for you. And we’re going to be here, and then you do it, then you’re there. Then you build clients for life. I’ve had advisors tell me that the only person they worked with are the only persons were the couple. But one of the couple died. They did these good practices of checking in of being there of asking good questions of evaluating choices. They ended up getting the entire family, they got all the kids and the inlaws and they got friends, they expanded their entire network without ever having to ask for a referral. There was even a study done by one of the Limra, one of the insurance research organizations in the States, they found that family members of people whose loved one was treated with compassion, kindness, and consistency, after a death said that they would work with that company again, or they would work with that company, even if they had never worked with that company before. It doesn’t take that much. Sometimes it’s just a little tweak, and you expand your network rapidly getting referrals without ever having to ask for them. And when advisor doesn’t want that.

Louis van der Merwe
Me I mean, it doesn’t sound like a very high bar. It’s really just saying, we’ll be there for you. And we get what you’re going through. We won’t rush you into decisions. We won’t put you in uncomfortable positions.

Amy Florian
Yeah. And then keep asking the open ended questions. It’s we get so concerned about what do I say? Okay, they’re coming into the office, what do I say? It’s not nearly so important, what you say is which ask, just ask those questions. Like I like I said, I would kind of a day is it today,

Louis van der Merwe
I had a client that said, there’s only terrible days and average days. So you can ask me which one of the two? I said, Okay, that’s that’s fair.

Amy Florian
Okay. Thanks. And you know, what, then you know something about that client? Yeah. It’s, let me give you my favorite question to ask you all my favorite question lists. Yeah. Favorite question to ask. And this works for any transition doesn’t have to be a death, any transition, and it works. Anytime down the road. What do you wish people knew about what what this is like for you? Or about what you’re going through right now? What do you wish people knew the thought what they wish you knew? What do you wish people knew about what it’s like now to face the first anniversary of your child’s death? What do you wish people knew about what it’s like to hear stage four come out of your doctor’s mouth? What do you wish people knew about what it’s like to wake up and realize that your entire home is gone? What do you wish people knew? And they will tell you what they wish you knew. Another really good question in that initial period of time is, tell me what’s one thing people said to you that you found comforting? And what’s one thing that you’re just getting tired of hearing? Or was not helpful at all? And oh, my gosh, while you’re getting answers to that, not only then are you allowing the client to talk, you’re allowing them to tell their story, which is the most important need that grieving people have is to tell their story. You’re allowing them to talk about it. You’re also finding out what they find comforting and what they do not find comforting, or they’re, you know, I’m so tired. I had a financial professional who said to me, my mom died three months ago. And if one more person tells me how sorry they are, I think I’m going to spit. No, you find out what they find comforting and what they don’t find comforting. And it’s not a good idea to say I’m so sorry. Anyway, but you know, particularly if that person is your client, you know, never to say I’m so sorry, to ask questions to do something else. But not to say that because people get really, really, really tired of hearing it.

Louis van der Merwe
I found just asking, What are these things people are saying to you that actually really get too upset? Actually, it becomes something you can laugh about something you can one of my clients, I must share this with. You said that people keep on saying I’m thinking about you and she replied to this person I’m thinking of you do. lifted. That’s right. She just had enough. Yeah,

Amy Florian
or thoughts and prayers has gotten a really bad rap in the last few years. thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers. Well, what am I supposed to do with thoughts and prayers? Excuse me. It’s a nice sentiment and people are trying to express their care, but they don’t know better ways to do it. financial professionals have tons of ways to do it. To be there the the cards and the gifts and the notes and the questions and accompanying people your job is not to cheer them up or fix it. Your job is to companion them. Wherever they are, and you don’t know where they are, if you’re not asking those good questions, and really, really listening to the answers,

Louis van der Merwe
I’m guessing this is some of the training that you do with your in person or in your virtual sessions. Can you share a little bit more about about that? And where people can find that people that are interesting, I’m definitely that’s on my list of things to study and to your team.

Amy Florian
Yeah. Well, you that you told me you have my book, no longer awkward. The subtitle is communicating with clients in the toughest times of life. That’s kind of a guidebook, it has over 100 different texts, you can write and condolence cards, it has over 90 different books, you can give a recommend to clients, it’s got a lot of solid information about grief and how to understand it. So that’s kind of the full guidebook. Then I also have a little desktop references, just heavy cardstock 32 questions to ask 47 things to avoid your protocol for attending services, how to acknowledge the mixed experience of even positive transitions. Because even positive transitions trigger grief, when you retire, you got to leave behind your title and status and prestige in your daily routine and your reason for getting out of bed in the morning and the colleagues you associated with on a daily basis. You can leave behind a lot in order to retire. So how do you how do you talk to a client about that mixed experience? So that’s just this desktop reference. It’s called compassionate communications. I’ve also got a book for clients on grief, called a friend indeed help those who love when they grieve. So then when people say what can I do, what can I do read the book. But you’ll know, in in person, I, I travel all over teaching, my favorite is to teach in person, because it’s I love the conversations that happen then in the hallway, and over lunch, things like that. There’s so many things that can happen in person, that it’s very difficult to do online. However, I’ve never been to South Africa. So I also do webinars and online training, I can do training in an office, I’ve often been brought into offices, doing anything from a half day to a full day to two days in an office working with people about grief support and how to build those long term relationships. I do that virtually I do that in person. I teach at conferences, that events at industry events, all all kinds of things all over the place. I developed a like I always used to say two and a half day. But if I do it virtually, it’s really three days because of zoom fatigue. So a do shoot three shorter days. And I can teach that three days in a row. I can teach it a day a week for three weeks. If it’s in person, it’s like two and a half days. I do that in Chicago, right outside O’Hare Airport. So there’s free shuttle service over from the airport for people who come in from all over to come to the in person masterclass. I think I don’t know. Does that answer your questions? Or what am I leaving out here?

Louis van der Merwe
I mean, we would we would people go to get a little bit more information about this as your website, the best place to reach the website

Amy Florian
is the best place core genius. Again, core is the Latin root for the word heart. CLR, not C O R E, that’s the biggest spelling mistake people make. It’s just C O R. And then genius, G N U S corp genius.com. You can email me at any time, I’ll try to help you have whatever you need. I’m not in competition with you. I’m not a financial professional. So I’m a fan otologist. And my job is to help you have whatever you need to serve your grieving clients really well. You can email me check out the resources that are on the website. recommend me to conferences and events that you attend. I’d love to have our paths crossed again. That would be a great joy.

Louis van der Merwe
I mean, I want to thank you so much for the work that you do. It is it was helping 1000s of people. It’s helped me and it’s helped our business and our clients. And definitely we will be rooting for you to attend or host one of the Financial Planning Institute conventions one of these days. I think that that would be wonderful. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. You are most welcome.

Amy Florian
Thank you for having me. It really is this this is my passion in life. This is what brings meaning and purpose to me. So it’s a it’s a great joy to share it with you.