#72 Jo van Niekerk – Transcript

Louis van der Merwe
So Ross recording. During I’ve got Giovanni Kenickie. With me, he is a colleague and a friend. And today’s episode it’s going to be with him, it’s going to be slightly different from what you expect. So enjoy the editing. So Joe, we’re going to do a little bit of silence. Just assume to record the background. And then I’ll start with an Intro

Welcome to a very special episode of ensemble advice South Africa. Firstly, you’ll note that we’ve had a bit of a name change and a brand new image. Thanks to the team down under. And I hope you enjoy this new look. And I think with today’s episode, we have something special, someone that has taken a leap of faith into something a little bit unknown. And I want to keep it mysterious. We’re going to start with with a little bit of a hint. Yeah, enjoy.

And that was the sweet sound of an artist formerly known as Joe Martin. Mr. Jo van Niekerk. Thank you for joining me today. It’s such an honor to have you. Yeah.

Jo van Niekerk
Thanks, Louis. It’s great to be here. Thanks for letting me play a little bit. It’s been a while

Louis van der Merwe
not rusty at all. You. You’ve taken the plunge and made a big life changing career move. And today we’ll we’ll unpack that a little bit. But for the audience, I think we need to start with Wait, Joe comes from there, how your name was shortened and give us give us that backstory and then we’ll we’ll explore a little bit more. Sure.

Jo van Niekerk
Well, so I’m actually both my parents are Africans. But they decided to place me in an English school from day one. So back when I started school, it was still called sorbet. And arts grade one I think. And yeah, I couldn’t I couldn’t speak a word of English on my first first day of school took a while. But fortunately, kids adapt quite quickly. And I was schooled in English. So when I decided that I wanted to become a professional musician. I didn’t think the name Yanis for Nica could necessarily write very old plays. So I changed it to my stage name Joe Martin, which was just a totally random name that came out of the ether somewhere. That’s it.

Louis van der Merwe
How wonderful is that? That you said, Hey, from a marketing and a branding perspective, maybe we need to find something that resonates know a bit more with people. Yeah.

Jo van Niekerk
And I just thought it’s my name that I spell. Now it’s just J. O, which has fun sometimes with the providers. But that was sort of a tip of the hat to my full name Yohannes. Not to say it’s J O not J E, for what it’s worth.

Louis van der Merwe
So you got into the music industry with a focus on primarily blues, homeless, those early years starting out as a musician, you know, we have this picture of struggling musicians. I’m not sure what the scene in South Africa was like, What year was this? And how was it like, in those first couple of years?

Jo van Niekerk
Yeah, so we’re talking about I finished my two years National Service at the end of the 88. So I kicked off basic the next year. So I could say my first year in the industry was 1989. I started playing gigs in small towns in the Eastern Cape like Stutterheim King William’s town, and East London itself. And from there, my career just progressed along different lines, they were they were growth spurts as there is with with you know, with any career, I always made a point of trying to to spend time and jam specifically with people that were at the time better than I was so that I could learn. And but the industry itself back then was I’d say it was very much in its infancy. It was still more focused around playing covers if you wanted to, you know, make a living out of it. But then I started moving more towards doing original stuff as well. Yeah, so that’s So that’s that’s kind of how it all started.

Louis van der Merwe
I like what you said there of working and jamming with people that, you know, maybe just a little bit higher up. Yeah. What about that attracted you to that specific training situation or

Jo van Niekerk
I want to learn. Even when I was the last six months of my national service, there was a guy Aleister contravened me sooner, but he used to play with the Blues Blues, cool, cool blues band. And literally every morning, he’d show me a riff or a lick, or chord progression. And he’d say, again, I practice that. And I’d sit down, literally sit the whole day and practice that one thing. And the next morning, he’d say, show me and I play and say, Yeah, cool. And then show me the next thing. So it’s about, it’s about learning through, I suppose. In my case, being humble enough to accept that if you really want to progress that you have to, you have to learn and take knowledge in from, from people that have walked the road before you have. So that’s,

Louis van der Merwe
Joe, we’ve all heard this concept around, you need to train 14,000 hours to become really masterful at motor skills. And I think music is definitely one of those. What was that tipping point for you when it started feeling a bit more natural? Or were you just a born musician?

Jo van Niekerk
Interesting question. I’d say the tipping point came in 95, when I was asked to join a band, called the Flying Circus, we had limited commercial success. I think our one song made it to like number 14 or something on Yeah, so but it was it was it was a very, very steep learning curve. For me. I had I had the privilege of working. And Richard Mitchell, who’s the producer of bands like mango groove, and you know, he had a lot of experience. And, you know, again, just listening to someone like that when he tells you try it like this, or you’re playing a bit fast, or, you know, so that was that was an incredibly steep learning curve, the six months that we recorded that album. So that was a tipping point, I think when I came, when I got to the other side of that album, I felt, I felt comfortable on stage to the point where whether I was playing with a band on my own, or anything in between that I could handle myself.

Louis van der Merwe
You get the sense of that you kind of mastered this, and

Jo van Niekerk
yeah, no, no, no, no, it’s, it’s a journey. It’s like, it’s like, it’s like anything I mean, including, you know, what, what I’m what I’m trying to do now, as a financial planner. It’s it’s a process. And and, I mean, you talk about the 10,000 hour principle, I only learned about that about five or six years ago. So I went and did a calculation, and very, very rough guesstimate excluding studio time. Sorry, it sounds like I’m boasting, I’m not it’s just, it’s just purely, it was interesting to me. Excluding studio time and practice time, just stage time, in my 30 year career as a music musician, I was probably just over 16,000 hours on stage. So you get to a point where, where it just feels natural to you, and you’re comfortable, whether it’s in front of one personnel, you know, couple of 1000 people

Louis van der Merwe
16,000 hours, that’s a, that’s a big number. I’m in the middle of reading any Dukes book called quit. And in one of the chapters, we talk about the sunk cost fallacy, or she talks about the sunk cost fallacy around looking back at, you know, the amount of time that you’ve invested 16,000 hours. And then we should actually look at the future expected value. Instead of saying, Hey, I’ve done all of this, where I have now it’s rather looking forward and saying, what this career gonna bring me going forward. Now, you made the jump from musician into the financial services world, a very brave move. And you left behind those 16,000 hours. And so I’d like to know, what if that stuck with you like what, what skills could you use to translate into financial services for the last couple of years, that maybe have made it a little bit easier than someone just coming into the industry financial services industry?

Jo van Niekerk
Sure. Yeah, sure. Okay, let’s Yeah, so, the first thing that springs to mind would be personable skills in that you get to a point With playing gigs or concerts, whatever, that you can read a room quite well. So, you know, you can see, hey, maybe that guy likes blues, or, you know, that girl was probably wanting to hear some Led Zeppelin or something like that. So. So it’s a thing, I think it’s about having skills to anticipate that you then, or in your, you learn to fine tune those skills just through A through A, almost like a sixth sense. So that I think that helped a lot. And I think also just not being that young anymore. I’m 53. Now, just being more comfortable with who you are as a person. And the second thing is just perseverance. My my mom came and visited me when I was living in East London, in the first year that I started out as a musician, and she was horrified when she walked into the room that I was renting, because there was literally just a sleeping bag on a foam mattress and my, my gear, my music gear, you know, and she’s like, where’s the rest, and I said, this is it, mom. And like any parent, she was hoping that I’d first go and qualify myself just as a backup kind of thing. And I said to Mom, this is what I want to do. And I did it for 30 years. And it provided well enough for, for, you know, myself and my wife to get to a point where we are today. So it’s it’s perseverance. It’s just sticking it out and believing that that’s with hard work and help from others, learning from others that you can get

Louis van der Merwe
to that grid and like working through it. I want to know that girl that you spotted that you think likes leaves a plan and want to hear some of the students? How do you cultivate that that gut feeling like what do you look for? Is it just a sense of oh, I’m taking a guess? Or was it kind of a cumulative experience? And are people like this? The to expect some of the songs?

Jo van Niekerk
It’s I wouldn’t say it’s an educated guess I’d say it’s more an instinctive thing that’s developed through many years of doing the same thing. I’m sure that I’m not sure. But I assume that when you see a client, that although there may, or that you may think that they want to talk about X, Y and Zed that, that there’s a feeling of, maybe there’s something else, it’s just it’s a it’s a gut feel. But there are a couple of cues as well. Like, you can see, by the way, often you can see, by the way people dress, how they present themselves. How they talk, you know, it’s sort of, it’s just a notice, that’s a feel thing, music, music talks to you, you just have to have the ears to listen to her.

Louis van der Merwe
I love that love that music. Dachstein just have to have the ears to listen to her

Jo van Niekerk
to her. She’s the muse. She’s the muse.

Louis van der Merwe
I mean, Joe, we in the financial services, we often train for cues to sell things, right people, when you say cues, I’m thinking, Oh, wow, you know, you need to, you need to come in with this angle. But slowly there’s a shift, there’s a shift away from cues for sales. Sure. And I know this is also something that you are very passionate about how the financial industry was when you were a musician. So tell us a little bit your experience with advisors or product salesmen or whatever you might want to call us. I’m gonna assume that I don’t know these stories.

Jo van Niekerk
So yeah, school fees. I suppose I have a very overdeveloped sense of responsibility. And my wife who I met when she was I had just turned 19 And she was about 16. So we met very young. And when she finished school, and she went and studied equine studies, I wanted to make sure that to the best of my abilities that it should something happened to me that there’s something for her and, and at that stage, I didn’t know anything about the industry. So I just knew you get life insurance, right. So I won’t mention names but

Louis van der Merwe
I need a green policy or blue policy.

Jo van Niekerk
I got sold. I got sold by a very, very good salesman, let’s let’s say that you saw the cues and exactly he really did. I mean I had hair down to my bumps. So anyway, basically just sold me an endowment policy. What did I know about the 30% tax rate in it is and I started, I started at a young age paying my dues. I I’ve always had an interest in, in in finances and investments and did a lot of reading even the days before Google. Once Once the internet once those resources became available, I did a lot more studying online. But things like compound interest and things like that really piqued my interest. And yeah, then my wife wanted to do a section 14 transfer. And there were massive penalties involved. And leading up to that I had been doing the calculations myself and realized that something wasn’t adding up with the returns, we were getting on, on certain investments. And that was the impetus for me to say, hey, you know, I think I can do better, which was a bit of a bold statement at the time, but, but I then came across. Well, I came across you.

Louis van der Merwe
A good time for full disclosure. Yeah, absolutely. So Joe’s, a client that became a friend that became a colleague, that’s probably the most succinct way of sharing that journey. But I want to pause you for one second that you did your due diligence you like you delved into the data with, I think, a very deep sense of understanding and kind of, is that normal for musicians to do something like that? No, no, we’re generalizing mercial. But was there a piece of you that wasn’t maybe taken care of in the in the music industry, that analytical ability?

Jo van Niekerk
So to answer the first part of your question, Louis, you know, it’s not common with musicians, unfortunately, in my experience, anyway, musicians and artists in general, my dad was an artist on his life are notoriously bad with with finances. And and, you know, that’s often why successful bands and musicians have managers, because those are the guys that take Gaza take care of the business. You know, I was fortunate in that, I think, to a large part of my success for those 30 years, and being able to survive in the industry, was my ability to to be able to think ahead, as far as at least my earnings are concerned, because it’s also you can imagine with, with with playing gigs, and shows, it’s it’s cyclic. And it’s it’s seasonal. So you know, Cape Town in the winter, people hibernate, so you’ve got to think ahead. I think I was just, I’ve just been blessed with, with slightly a more analytical way of thinking than artists do in general, let’s say.

Louis van der Merwe
So you were unpacking these investments. Now, you mentioned your wife’s retirement fund, and you looked at the cost. And you said, I use returns of the funds and use my returns? Exactly. A lot of theory tells us Oh, it’s bad behavior, right. But they don’t tell us go and delve into the costs. Again, look at it and tell me what was that response when you first realized this such a big gap between where the investments could have been and where you guys ended up? Like what was what was that emotional? Because it’s not often we get a chance to delve into the mind of a client? Sure, I’d say, if you’re willing to share just what that process. I

Jo van Niekerk
was. I was I was angry, I was very angry. My wife and I both come from modest earning middle class families, we probably won’t inherit, you know, there’s no safety nets. There’s no trust fund is. So what we don’t make provision for we’re not going to have right. So I was angry. Because I felt that. Also trying to get past the call centers and trying to then eventually get to the actuaries to ask, Hey, like, there’s a disconnect. Am I missing something because you guys obviously a lot more intelligent and clued up and experienced and qualified than I am. But one on one is not equaling to hear what’s going on. And then essentially being given the runaround on numerous occasions, and then I realized that, as I said, If I don’t step up and do something about this thing, chances are we are going to have a problem as we get older, and we’re not able to earn as so many South Africans, you know, pre retirement or even in retirement are struggling with. So that’s why I use the word the term you know, just blessed with that ability to analyze and to and then to have the time to take that leap of faith and contact You know, a financial services provider that that, you know, put me on the right path, which which you did. I mean, you, you were and you still are my advisor, in that sense. So, yeah, it’s, it’s a process.

Louis van der Merwe
It’s not a great feeling when you feel like you’re the only one with this information. And clearly you must be wrong. Exactly. So this was the days I fought DCF before we could see your face annual costs before we knew. Do you think the industry has improved in that sense? Or some would call me out and say it’s now profession. But be that is, do you think we have moved on and we have improved the way we talk about what things cost for clients, at least as a as an aggregate?

Jo van Niekerk
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I think I think the industry is more transparent in general. You know, there are, there are degrees of either side of that statement that are, you know, positive and negative. But certainly, from from that time, let’s say 10 1015 years ago, or 10 years ago, till now, there’s a lot more transparency, I think there’s more accountability as well, in the legislation has, in my view, certainly helped a lot. And I, I am, I am hopeful that would ever, my contribution going forward to the industry at large, and this is not in context of wealth up this is I’m talking about the financial services industry at large, whatever my contribution is, that, that it makes a positive difference and impact on people’s lives who previously may have experienced or gone through similar experiences that my wife and I did, and just restore some of that faith, hopefully. Back into the industry, because I think there was a lot of I think, I think there was a lot of focus on product rather than clients. And I would, that’s why I’m passionate about it. It’s, it’s to me, it’s it’s about making a difference. Even, even even in my musician days, I enjoyed, I enjoyed playing a song for someone that they requested. And I could see that they really enjoyed it. And I, you know, it’s that, that feeling of, you know,

Louis van der Merwe
kind of lifting someone’s mood absolutely changing, leaving them off better than what you love them. Absolutely. So now you’ve discovered what these costs, are you add a little bit of guidance, you now know, right? At what point, do you say, I’d like to venture into the world of financial services.

Jo van Niekerk
So, so my father in law is a retired forester, and he took a government pension package, I think it was with the gates commission. And he was very uncertain as to how he should proceed for retirement planning. And I went and chatted to him the one afternoon. We set probably talking for about two hours. And this is this is even more

Louis van der Merwe
on how did you get to that this is your father in law, that you are saying, can we talk about your money?

Jo van Niekerk
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, he approached me, he approached me. And this is before I even started studying this, this was back in the selfhelp days when

Louis van der Merwe
so you’re a guy that knows?

Jo van Niekerk
He was kind of Yeah, you know, what it’s like, if you start if you start expressing interest in something, then then, you know, more and more people would say, I don’t know if you know about this, but do you perhaps have any opinion on this or that so, so I just chatted to him and explained to him the little bit that I knew at that stage, he’s my father in law. So I just said, you know, it’s like, consolidating of investments because you seem to have investments all over the place and he had shares and and, and, and I explained to him how how Balanced fund works and etc, etc. And we got home that night, and I said, probably for the best part of 3040 minutes. Recapping, you know, the discussion I had with with Grandpa with, with my wife, and you know, her eyes sort of glazed over after 10 minutes, but she loves me so she listened to everything. So anyway, and eventually she just, she nailed it like she usually does. She just said, you’ve obviously got a lot of interest in this. Why don’t you just go and study and that I think I had met you probably around about that time, maybe a year or two before that. And then it was a process of actually, that’s not a bad idea. Because I’m not really moving forward in my career as a musician, I’ve kind of hit the ceiling. And it just naturally progressed from there. So

Louis van der Merwe
so this was the inside of Heidi, thank you, Heidi, do this in a loving natural way of nudging this possible that was that a possibility in your mind? Even before she said that?

Jo van Niekerk
No, no, no. I had been thinking for a while that I’d like to do something else. Because because I was getting a bit bored in the music industry. It was it was moving from a passion should to a job. And this thing that I loved so much, since I was a young teenager was suddenly becoming like, sort of just the stone around my neck. So so there was thinking of doing something but but I didn’t think that I had I wouldn’t say I didn’t think that I had what it takes I just thought maybe it’s too late in life for me to make a change like that. But the more I investigated and chatted to guys like you about what to study and and what to look at, and what the possibilities are and that the industry is, is expanding the whole time, and that the potential for a particular line of work is expanding the whole time. I thought, okay, you know, maybe maybe this is something I should explore. So it was a slow process. It wasn’t overnight.

Louis van der Merwe
Did it feel like, Hey, I already have all these skills that I can bring to the table? Or was it more? I’m starting from scratch again, just like I did. When I started out my Yeah, pretty much

Jo van Niekerk
the latter. It did feel like I’m starting out, you know, the first, the first exam that I wrote. I mean, I literally had like a full blown panic attack that I had to keep under control because I hadn’t I hadn’t written an exam since matric which was in 1987. Right. So, and there’s all these young guys and girls sitting around me, and I’m the last person in the exam room, and I’m writing in my thumb’s cramping. So yeah, I was, it was, it was very much in my mind, starting from scratch, I knew that I was bringing life skills to the table. But as far as actual knowledge and technical ability within the industry is concerned, I realized that I was starting from zero, which felt like it.

Louis van der Merwe
And what was that thought process? You know, what was the timeframe to say, I’m gonna give this a shot for X amount of time, or I’m going to make this work at any cost. I can talk me through how you got to that point after Heidi said, Why don’t you which is my favorite words? Somebody should someone should on you, saying, Hey, this is something that you seem to enjoy. I think we could pursue this. What is their thought process? How long did that see take to start growing?

Jo van Niekerk
Yeah. It took a while. I think I think it was a confidence thing as well. And, and just a natural process of, of chatting to people, like I said, people within the industry, you know, guys like yourself and getting into more detailed resources to what’s, you know, what’s required, you know, what the actual requirements are? I think the point of no return for me was after I’d written that first exam, and I passed out was, I thought, okay, if I could, you know, if I could commit to doing that, then I can, I can do that for the rest of the modules. And I can do whatever it’s like, 35 and, you know, all the stuff that came after that. And it was just, it was just saying, right, you know, let’s, let’s do this. Let’s stick it out. Let’s it’s just like, do whatever it takes.

Louis van der Merwe
And your career as a musician has taught you that. Let’s stick it out. Absolutely. Right. I need to work through this to get to a point where I can now make this my living. When we think about career changes. It’s often policeman or its teachers that naturally historically fell into financial so offices, I think partly because some of them might have had a big network that knew a lot of people, right, you could get to get to potential clients, or they could bring a skill set. I want to talk about the skill set of being able to express yourself artistically, and having creativity. And I think it’s, it’s such a wonderful thing. Have you been able to incorporate creativity in what you do? Right now?

Jo van Niekerk
Absolutely. No, no, and it is, it is one of the, to me, it is one of the draw cards. Because essentially, I’ll, I will always be a musician in the sense that I’m a I’m a, I’m an artist, um, you know, I still often catch myself thinking like a musician, if I can put it that way, you know, so So for me, it’s, it’s, it’s definitely the limited experience that I’ve had up to now with dealing with clients. As you know, every client has different requirements, they have different personalities, they have different risk tolerances, and everything is different. You can’t there’s no cookie cutter, one size fits all. And that ties a lot for me, that ties a lot in with with, with, with that creative side of being able to just say, right, I’ve, I’ve got these building blocks that I can use, but I’m never, it’s very unlikely that you’re ever going to use those building blocks in the same order as you did with the previous client. And that’s nice. That’s good. It feels good. You know, that feels good that you’re not just standing on a production line, fitting that one screw to the PC board. You know, it’s, it is a creative process.

Louis van der Merwe
They use the Lego blocks, let’s put it together. Yeah, you someone once said that, the only question you need to ask in an interview is did you did you play with Lego growing?

Jo van Niekerk
Or did

Louis van der Merwe
you pass? This is something that I think a lot of people don’t have a confidence saying, Hey, I’m a creative. And it brings in a massive, massive amount of value to a world where it’s not often celebrated. To have that creative expression.

Jo van Niekerk
Sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s a difficult time for for creative people. I mean, just in my previous field, music is now so accessible. You know, I remember, when I was, I was probably probably about 16. I spent an entire month’s pocket money to buy one album, you know, because there was no YouTube, there was no, you know, Apple Music they would do. Now, you’d have essentially, free music, wherever, if you want to listen to an album, you don’t actually have to go and buy it anymore. You can just listen to it on YouTube. And so it has unfortunately, in my view, it has undervalued. What it is that musicians do. And I think I think a lot of I think a lot of artists feel the same, we’ve become a very, we’ve become a very technical world, a very noughts and one’s world. And I think a lot of that subtlety that we can experience through the expression of art has been lost, unfortunately.

Louis van der Merwe
Joe, how do we make financial planning more accessible for musicians, for creatives for people that, you know, the risk of not coming across Greg, previously didn’t have access to maybe independent advice or maybe unbiased advice? Sure.

Jo van Niekerk
So unfortunately, I thought of musicians that I know are naturally suspicious, because you’re often dealing with club owners and you know, the seller pays so much and then that any play is so much or you know, we don’t we, we didn’t work with contracts, it was it was all a handshake, essentially, you know, so, so unfortunately, there’s a little bit of suspicion around that, I think the way forward and it’s something that I have thought about a lot specifically to to to be able to put something together where you can help a musician to at least have some kind of something to fall back on when they can’t work anymore. Even if it’s something as basic as a Tax Free Savings Account. It doesn’t even have to be an IRA or yeah and I think I think the way forward is essentially what what you’re doing right now is to get it out there on social media and my hope for for this podcast today is is that even if one other music or artist listens to this and goes hey, you know this guy’s This is resonating. This is working, you know? That that would be a win for me. Because I think I think our industry focuses often on on on your more traditional types of employment, whether it be running your own business or being an employed person. You know, often I think the self image, self employed artists type people are kind of just not really thought of in that sense.

Louis van der Merwe
So just a little bit more guidance, a little bit more education, almost giving away things for free, in order to be able to help them to get to a better point.

Jo van Niekerk
And so yes, and awareness, you know, just awareness of, because I know, it sounds like I’m trying to plant welfare. But honestly, I didn’t know that a company like this existed when I, when I first made contact with you, because I thought it was all about it was all commissioned driven, I thought the experience that I’ve had, I’d had at 21, where a guy saw who had been in the industry for many, many years at that stage. He was, he was, he was, he was well experienced and well versed within the industry, sold a 21 year old musician who’s sort of pouring his heart out to saying, saying, Hey, I just want to make sure that my wife’s Okay, in selling him an endowment policy. There’s no way here’s my tax, you know, so So I think I think it’s just I think it’s a process of, of, of, of education and awareness and realizing that the industry has changed and that there are other companies like wealth up that put the client’s needs first. And and not not the, not the commission.

Louis van der Merwe
What did your musician friends say, when you say, Hey, I’m leaving this and I’m gonna be a broker.

Jo van Niekerk
They didn’t say anything, because they’re still busy laughing. No, it was, it was actually I must say, I actually had a lot of support from from my close friends. There was also and there still is a little bit of sadness. I think. I still get calls. I had one last week. One of my old Bohemia fans is getting married, and he wants me to play at the wedding. And can we coax you out of retirement and all this stuff? And I just said, Sorry, I’ve burned the ships in this is, it’s just not the way I do things. You know, it’s like that focus on one thing, and that’s what I do so. So yeah, I mean, obviously, it’s not a very common thing going from musician to financial planner. But what can you do? I

Louis van der Merwe
think it’s wonderful that you can share this story and your experience, and hopefully, for someone listening, maybe make it a little bit more doable? Absolutely. This is something Joe did. Absolutely.

Jo van Niekerk
Yeah. And, and, and, and people within the industry within the financial services industry are in my, in my experience, very, most of them are very approachable, and very generous with their expertise and time. I mean, they don’t suffer fools. But if you genuinely need help with something, or you know, the books is this, but the practical application of that is that and you don’t know how to bridge the two. My experience is just people are willing to help you and be generous, which is great, you know?

Louis van der Merwe
What would you say to that Joe? Writing his first exam to motivate him a little bit, given where you are now?

Jo van Niekerk
Sure. Yeah. Louis. That was, that was a really, really difficult time for me, because it’s that confidence thing. And it’s, it was the anxiety of can I do this? Who am I kidding? You know, this is crazy. Like, my wife doesn’t know what she’s talking about. So what I’d say is, just just keep trucking. Just keep pushing. Just keep going. You know, that’s it.

Louis van der Merwe
And well done for doing that. mean, we had a few conversations, we came to me saying, How do I enter this? And it’s like, every time we had that conversation, just said, Okay, now go and do this. Come back. And I thought to myself, Well, if he’s really serious, we’ll go and do it. And he comes back and it happened. Not just one time, you came back a second and a third time. But even during that time, it felt like you didn’t really get answers for your questions around how do I find a house? How do I do this long term? How do I move to a place where it’s not just sales? So how do we make that a little bit easier given where we are now? Like, how do we make it easier for people to to change careers so that they don’t feel excluded from an industry where I think we can learn so much from someone that might have done something else in the past? Like what what is the that if there was one thing that you can change? Each and it’s not the way advisors are remunerated, what would you change?

Jo van Niekerk
Yeah, sure, I’d have to think about that. I would say, knowledge regarding the ease of access into the industry if you’re genuinely, and I don’t like to use the word, but if you’re genuinely passionate about it, if you really, if you really have an interest, you’re not just doing it because, you know, you need to earn an income or something like that, if you if you prepare to work for free, because you just, you know, that one day, you’re gonna get there kind of thing, you know. So it’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s the knowledge of the ease of access, and the awareness of having that, having that ability to approach people within the industry freely and ask them questions like I did with you, you know, I mean, I mean, I just, I, essentially, I just bang the door down, you guys had to give me a job.

Louis van der Merwe
I once saw at the bottom of have a client forwarded an email from someone else. And at the bottom of this email, it had a little slogan. And so this is from someone that that sold insurance products. And it said, There is no one within this carrier, you’d have to this up, there’s no man with endurance, like a man that sells insurance. That’s true. And so we knew what was being done this door, this is this is the right. But there’s also a famous saying that hire for attitude and train for skill. And so if you can kind of give some guidance to someone maybe starting out, maybe new, maybe a career changer, what attitude or what elements of your attitude has really helped you to persevere.

Jo van Niekerk
I think, again, it’s in my Well, it starts with a genuine interest in what it is you’re trying to change to, you know, you can’t you can’t fool yourself, and you certainly can’t fool anyone else if you don’t mean it. Because that comes across, you know, and that ties into the whole thing, hire, you know, hire for attitude. I’d never heard that expression until you mentioned that. And I thought, wow, that’s actually that actually sort of fits my, my situation, you know. So it’s, yeah, it’s just about believing in what you’re doing. And not being afraid to approach people to ask questions. Because people in general, my experiences, people don’t think you’re stupid if you ask questions. But they do think that you’re a chancer if you don’t ask questions, but you don’t get to work right? You know, so rather ask questions. And don’t be afraid to stand out. And persevere.

Louis van der Merwe
It’s worth commenting that as a financial planner, and advisor, if your default is I don’t like answering questions, you’re gonna have a pretty tough time in front of clients.

Unknown Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, that’s true.

Louis van der Merwe
And now if your default is, hey, I’m working with clients where I want to make it easy to answer questions. I’m not making my clients feel that they are someone lesser than me, or that they are not unintelligent, for asking these questions to then apply or not apply that in another part of your life is, I would say is near impossible. Right? So I really like what you’re saying, if you find someone that’s willing to give you time and answer your questions that almost treat you the way they would treat your clients in a leanin. Spend a bit more time and do that. And there’s is 1000s of advisors and financial planners in South Africa that can help you with that. And the 72 episodes that you can listen to you want to find hints of who those people are, Jo, thank you so much. It’s a privilege to work with you and to change the way financial planning is delivered. And I’m so grateful that you took the plunge and that you join me today.

Jo van Niekerk
Thanks, Louis. Thanks for having me on the podcast and thanks for having me on the team. It’s been a life changing experience and I hope we can do good things together.

Louis van der Merwe
Absolutely. Thanks.