#82 Clayton Daniel – Transcript

Louis van der Merwe
Welcome to another episode of ensemble advice. Today in the studio I have with me, Clayton Daniel, the CEO of Ensombl, I’ve had to add that this is the South African version. So if you’re listening in Australia, because you saw Clayton being on this show as a guest, welcome. It’s a slightly different accent. But we still people in the same profession. Clayton, Daniel, thanks so much for being here.

Clayton Daniel
Right, thank you very much for the invitation. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Louis van der Merwe
You’ve built an amazing tech business. And today, I want to have that journey around where it started, what the struggles have been, what the upside has been, like, why are we doing this? Like, why are you getting gift? Like, what’s the cake behind this? But giving that backstory, I know, you have a musical background, and somehow, when I speak to most of my guests somewhere, they did some gigs at some point today, like we’re part of a garage band, or they have this creative streak. I think you’re not an exception. So it’s a topic, that story.

Clayton Daniel
So I, I grew up being able to sing. I don’t know why I just was a good singer. So from a very young age, I was always the guy with the microphone standing at the front of the choir, like as a bunch of kids, right? Maybe, you know, from 10 years old onwards. And and I don’t know why I could sing, but I there was just an innate talent that I had. And then a couple of my best mates kicked off a band when we were about 15 or 16. And by that time, there was no more choirs at school, right? Because we’re too old and too cool to do that kind of thing. But they said to me, do you remember back in the day used to be able to sing, do you want to come and do that for this punk rock band that was started. And so at 16, I started, you know, just playing in the garage. So 1618 throughout high school, we then decided that we were 100% going to be rockstars. And so we all went off and studied music management for a year together collectively, and and then spent the next three years, two years after that. So the first three years outside of high school, were my, my full time focus was music. And, and so yeah, we played a lot, we recorded a lot. And it was a great time, and I learned a hell of a lot was fantastic.

Louis van der Merwe
Clayton, what surprised me is that you said we actually went to go and study the management behind it. Like, it’s, it’s almost like, you approach this with a business sense. First, like what went into that thinking,

Clayton Daniel
I think what it was, was we came from a small town and naturally, so no one from a big city would ever think for one second that they could actually spend their life pursuing your career to be a rock star. I so we come from a small town, and we just assumed that there was an element that we needed to get our heads around in order to make it happen. And as a part of the course, you know, we learnt sound engineering and, and many different factors or facets of music. And yeah, I mean, it was a really good base. And it it sort of solidified our collective decision to go and do this together. And yeah, we really pursued it. I mean, that was my main gig for the first few years at high school. Yeah.

Louis van der Merwe
Like laying the foundation doing the prep work. We Are you happy that that’s the approach that you guys took,

Clayton Daniel
I can look back in hindsight and say, the the management if that’s the right word for it, the management that I learnt, from how horrible I was at it, in my early days has helped so much later in life. So I, I take a lot of the mistakes that I made, it being you know, 18 to 21 it because sort of I was the band manager, and I made a lot of mistakes. And I use those learnings massively still to this day, much more than you know, holding microphone. I use I use the management lessons for sure.

Louis van der Merwe
Yes, those skills that can translate into essentially any industry, be it financial advice, be building a tech business. What’s What was the name of the band, and can we still find any songs floating around on the internet?

Clayton Daniel
Oh, that’s a great question. Sorry, Louis. You’re cutting out I can’t hear you anymore. That question

Louis van der Merwe
will add a link somewhere

Clayton Daniel
that I decided a long time ago that when I retired from music, I’d retire ever mentioning the name of the band as well, you know, because we sort of You can find it and I don’t want to be found.

Louis van der Merwe
We’ll respect that one day when you’re on the Forbes 100 list, somebody’s

talking about that list, like what? What’s your drive behind creating and take your business? Like, what does this full, it comes down to?

Clayton Daniel
I love financial planning. So. So coming from a small town again, and then being largely, I would call it irresponsible with my career choices early on in life was all was all linked back to the fact that I didn’t understand how the world worked, really probably the best sort of summary for it. And as I went through university, and this was basically directly after I completed playing music in the band, so at 22 years of age, I go to university and study accounting and come out as an accountant very quickly move across into financial planning. And then after a couple of years, will watch my financial planning company at age 30. And, and what I learnt as a financial planner, actually taught me how the world works, it’s probably the best way to kind of explain it. And the I wish that the skills that a financial planner has, I wish I’d had financial planning like that when I was young. And that, and I sort of look at my community that I grew up around, and I think financial planning would be so useful for them as well. And so I became a huge fan of financial planning. And I also realized there was a major thing. How do I articulate this other professions, a well established in the sense that the professionals within the profession own and dictate the profession. And that’s just the nature of being around for a long time. And I found that, and this is going back a decade, goodness, when I launched my financial planning business. And it became pretty clear that there were that financial planners weren’t in charge of the financial planning profession. And, and so I was trying to become better at financial planning. And I found that there were roadblocks in the way of me obtaining that call it the acceleration of the 10,000 hours to mastery, right, like there were there were, I was struggling to rapidly scale the hurdles of becoming a great financial planner. And I didn’t think that that made sense. And so we we launched ensemble, which was x y advisor at the time, and basically to get around that problem. And then from there, it, other advisors joined, I guess, the desire to pursue a more rapid or direct pathway to professionalism. And then just being the nature of, I would say, in the world in which it is right now, which is very tech focused and virtually enabled. It just made sense for this thing, which had been created due to traction, really, rather than anyone’s grand plan. And it it sort of made sense to go down the tech path. And so yeah, all these later all these years later, where we’re a tech company that rarely doing it, because of where the where it started.

Louis van der Merwe
While Clayton I get this feeling that you were frustrated, you know, the frustrated with the way of financial planning was, was being done and also how your career could progress. I want to go back to something you mentioned the figuring out how the world works and and for people that might be studying financial planning or thinking about entering this profession, as you know, as they permanent Korea. What do you think those areas are that you could figure out how the world was like, What do you mean by that? Please unpack that a bit for me.

Clayton Daniel
Yeah. I think financial plan is a really, really uniquely positioned because they own the bridge. And I when I didn’t say Oh, I mean, no one else owns this. We know in the bridge, between rational and emotional, we there is no conduit like a financial planner to put mathematics and psychology together. And that that extraordinarily unique position. is I mean from a financial planners point of view, what an amazing career what like an enjoyable use of your time. Right. And from from, if you think about, like, the outcome of your work is individuals that you build a relationship with, that are living a better life. Like, I mean, not only is it enjoyable as as, as the person pursuing that career path, but it’s the rewards, both emotional as I just described. And monetarily are the the scales, in terms of the best use of your time, if you’re someone that’s good with numbers and people now, every financial planner will have will have will lean to one side, right? Like, some financial planners are better with people than math, and some financial planners are better with math than people. The goal is whatever, I guess, deficiency that you have, you can build up, right. And so and so, to me, I learnt, I learned how people work, I learned how I work, and I learned how the world works by, like getting good at financial planning. And I guess I’ve never articulated it like that before. But it does ring true to how I feel about

Louis van der Merwe
it. I love what you just said that financial planning is the bridge between rational and emotional. And for people that enjoy helping someone else, which is what I see over and over again, financial planners, most of them just love helping people. This is probably one of the most satisfying careers that you could ever pursue. Yeah, agree. What then happened? Why did you leave financial planning? Was this something more lucrative or? No? Action? Like you mentioned?

Clayton Daniel
Yeah, it’s quite funny. It definitely wasn’t a monetary decision as in the sense that I didn’t think I could make in fact, I, you know, it makes sense to understand my background, you know, coming from a small little country town, or rural town is probably the best way to put it when no one had any money. So it’s not like I felt out of place. But moving to the big city, there was almost this. And this is just for me, this isn’t a comment on financial planning. This is much more of a comment on my own on how it reflects to my background. But to answer the question it I put in so much hard work to figure out how the world works, right? Like, there was such a huge gap between where I came from, and where I had arrived at in terms of owning a financial planning company, that I almost felt disappointed in myself, that all of what I going through, was only going to result in maybe 100 or 200, clients being positively impact. And by just, it was more of an existential thing for me. And it’s, I certainly don’t recommend it to anyone else. But I wanted to have a scaled impact on and that’s that led me to go down the path of technology. And I just I didn’t know what it was going to be. When I sold the financial planning firm. I didn’t It’s not like I jump directly across to become the now CEO of ensemble. There was there was a bit of a journey, there was still a couple of years that I had to go through to before I’d sort of, I guess earned the right to take this position. But that that’s the answer. The answer was I loved everything I learned. And I wanted to have a scalable digital impact. A clear that’s,

Louis van der Merwe
that’s quite a challenge, right? I’ve got this book, quit by any Duke line, you’re on my desk. And it often comes up to me that these decisions are not easy, you know, saying I’m going to move into something where, yes, they can be scaled, and I can potentially have a much bigger impact. In hindsight, what was the kind of parameters that you said for you to know? Okay, this was worth me making that move? Was there any? Or was it just hey, this, this looks great. Let’s do it, starting another band in a different world.

Clayton Daniel
Look, I know, I know. You’re you’ve said it. It’s sort of in jest and it is in jest, but at the same time, I kind of, and again, this isn’t in any way it put it this way. This is not what I would tell my clients do refunds. But still pleasure planning. I certainly wouldn’t give them this advice. But where I’m wrong, there wasn’t really an expectation that I would do anything. So my kind of I guess for a great example of that was I got shown how to fill in a unemployment form Social Security before I even was ever told how to apply for a university or a have, you know any kind of education? So where I come from the the, the backstop was kind of so like the bar was so low in terms of what I kind of, even if it wasn’t directly expected of myself, but what was culturally almost expected of me that I had no qualms in giving anything ago. My view was, I’d already I’d already outrun any potential anchor, it maybe is the right terminology to use that, you know, statistically, I could probably do it again, that was and and I must be really clear in the sense that I don’t think that that’s a smart decision. And it’s not the kind of thing that I would ever give my advice to either clients or my children, for that matter. And I definitely must say that the time that I spent between selling my company, my financial planning company, and coming on as the CEO of ensemble, now, there was two years, right, where I just failed continuously in two and a half years, really. So the first things that I attempted to do, after selling my financial planning, business didn’t work. In fact, I think it was three years, it was almost like, it’s almost the last three years of my career in my mid to late 30s, which are like, really important years. And I was struggling to figure out, like I was struggling to make sense of the decisions I’d made to to give this a shot. Now, right now, almost four years later, I I’m ecstatic, right? That that, that I did make that decision, but then it was certainly no, like, expectation that that was going to work. And, and realistically, I kind of said to my girlfriend at the time now wife and mother of my child, the children, I said, if I’m ever going to do this, I have to do this now. Right? So that was a party the question like, What were the parameters? The parameters were, if I’m gonna do this, I have to do this now. Like, I caused my wind weight. Yes. Right. So we’re, you know, I’m going to have a family to look after. And so if I’m going to do this, I have to do this now. So that was kind of the parameters I kind of gave myself while I turned 40. This year, I gave myself 240. To dare I say, get to the position that I do find myself in now. But yeah, and it’s the kind of thing like I don’t even really like talking about it, because it was super high risk. So far looks like it was the right decision. But I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone,

Louis van der Merwe
I can see that you’ve reflected a lot on these decisions and kind of where it came from and what your defaults are. And I’m curious, how are you applying that to your now two beautiful children with the way you communicate specifically about big life decisions? Or are they still too young? Have you given I’m sure you’ve given this some thought, like, when, when they have to make a decision of like, do we go to university? Or do we start a business? Like what is the wise Clayton said? Like, what pearls of wisdom? You’d be delivering?

Clayton Daniel
Yeah, so, um, it’s a great question. I, I’m so unsure of the answer to that question that I would even hazard to try to answer it. Because I think, I think if you if you bring it back to financial planning, but like financial planning is about making, it’s about emotionally. So a financial planner tries will attempt to, and the job description is to get your client to emotionally feel the decisions that they’re going to live in the results of 10 years from now you’re trying to get them to, to engage with today. And that is very hard to do. Right? Like get someone to, you know, he’s 10 years in the future 20s and 30s in the future, right. Care about that. Right. And so and so. But I think I think the way that you once you’ve got that connection with your client and your, your, you’ve successfully achieved in, you know, getting them to care about things that are super far in the future, it’s about making the right decisions. Right. So the right decisions today, tomorrow and onwards. And so, my gut feel is I would get my kids to do the right decisions. Like, you know, I think there’s a lot of value in just diligently doing each day the right thing. Um, to the extent that yeah, I would never, I would never suggest for them to follow a career like I have. Yeah, I think you

Louis van der Merwe
gave that a great shot and it goes It comes across as Have you thought about these almost want to say rules, like and a lot of its behavioral finance related? Right was 100%? What was that in your mind before you ventured into financial planning? Or was that a part that you were drawn more towards, like the emotional side as opposed to their numbers? Given that you were an accountant?

Clayton Daniel
Yeah, yeah. And the appeal to me and financial planning came about because of the accountancy work that I was doing. And but I realized that limitation of the relationship extended for 12 months, right? Like, it’s an ongoing, transactional, 12 month relationship as an accountant, like, I know, you’re limited in the results that you achieve within a financial year. And, but I realized that money was so emotional, and and that, that, that financial planning dealt with long term into the future, rather than looking 12 months in the rearview mirror, and the emotional side of it did provide a lot of positive outcomes for the clients, if you were able to do that. I, I can’t say that I knew all of this, it was really a discovery. And I think this is kind of why, you know, like, at we met, because I interviewed you on the podcast, many moons ago, right? Because I saw the stuff that you were doing out of out of South Africa. And by no means I feel like I was one of many people that were sort of learning the trade through through external resources outside of the immediate sort of financial planning curriculum, if you want to call it within, within any sort of, you know, jurisdiction. And, and I, I learned, yeah, I kind of did learn how the world works through this behavioral finance. And I think I was probably still young enough to. And it almost sounds like I’ve even you served that, and I haven’t, like, I still make silly decisions. And I think, I think being a father has made me consider what decisions I’ve made in the past, probably under a more stricter lens than what I had previously.

Louis van der Merwe
Yeah, you now have another hat to wear another role is super important role, you know, father of two, and you’re the CEO, excuse me, of a tech business. Yeah, I’m sure you’ve had to give up quite a bit. When making decisions around which comes first? Is it the business? Or is it the family? Yeah. How do you weigh up those two? And fix it when, you know, the one gets upset with the other one, the business gets upset with the family or the family gets upset with the business?

Clayton Daniel
Yeah, it’s a great question. And so the way that I view business is just future family. Like I, I look at business as just this, this is what this is for the family just in the future, like not today. So I’m, you know, many years ago, when I was super involved in giving advice with my own financial planning company, I end up writing a book called Finding Your ideal lifestyle. And in that, like, one of the chapters is like a thought for today. And I think the next chapter is like a thought for tomorrow. And so the way that I kind of measure it is, my goal is to do really well with my family. And so it’s kind of like my thought for today. But the truth is, you know, the kids are gonna grow up like 20 years from now that they’ve moved out of home, and what what am I doing with my time and my life, and, you know, I plan on leaving for a lot longer posts then and to have a long term relationship with my wife. And so I know that achieving what I set out for myself in the professional realm is really healthy for my family as well. So I, I that and that’s how I kind of communicate it with my wife as well.

Louis van der Merwe
I love that love how you brought that kind of into, into your family objectives. And now it’s not just about you know, my kids and my, my wife, but it’s around that. Well, being in that kind of longevity. Yeah, having the energy to do these things. Like do you still see yourself 20 years from now? 30 years from now, running a tech business?

Clayton Daniel
Yes. Yeah, I do. I see myself being 90 years old. I don’t want to retire. So that’s why I’m that’s why I’m not in a rush as well. Because I still see that I’m, you know, even though i i turned 40 This year, I still feel like I’m in at least the first half, maybe even first third of my career. Like I really, I want to do things that allow me to come tenuously, because think about it, right? Like you would reflect on this probably in a very similar way, you probably are better at your job now than you were five years ago. And you’re probably delivering more value to your clients than you were five years ago, you probably able to receive more value in return now than you were five years ago. Why does that have to change? Like, why can’t we just continue to extrapolate that out? Like, I enjoy what it is that I do, I want to continue to do it for a long time, I don’t want to get better at it, I want to do a much better job at it. And so, one of the things I figured out while I was a financial planner, is I never wanted to retire. And yeah, like, like, just will continue to grow. I think also, what really helps is I’m so like, this company right now is so aligned with what my, my values are. So I mean, given the chance. I mean, you never know what’s gonna happen, of course, but they’re in one of the what is it the the multiverse in one of the timelines? Hopefully, it’s this one, I will, you know, die at 95 years old, having run the thing the whole time, and it’s done really well. Let’s I don’t know what timeline we but one of those that happens.

Louis van der Merwe
I really hope you’re right, and that we’re in this timeline together. Hell yeah. So now you you said to me that the purpose of this was to scale the impact on advice and to kind of, you know, move it faster, like allow people to learn from other professions in different areas. Talk to me a little bit about the recent wins of ensemble, like the show has been a lot. I mean, you guys have a lot of advisors in South Africa, on board, you’re doing amazing things. And for the people in South Africa, we are seeing some glimpses. But talk to me why this is important, like where you are now?

Clayton Daniel
Yeah, well, I see ensemble, and even the name change that we’ve got super lucky with the name change and the sense that ensemble already feels far more natural than X, Y and deviser. Like, already, it feels foreign to call it x, y, but like, ensemble, if you think about an ensemble, it’s just it’s an orchestra, right? Like the people at the height of their capabilities working together to create somebody’s car by themselves. And so to me, that name is it, you know, really resonates with what it is that we’re trying to do. But I’m but I’m, I’m not interested in growing an Australian based financial services, tech company, I want. Like, there’s there’s nothing unique about Australia that says, We need to be the only ones that do this. I think vital planning, there are amazing companies around the world. If you think about next gen planners in the UK, or XY Planning Network in the US. You know, even in South Africa, where you are, you got friends, wives got that podcast, right like that. There’s already there’s many people doing amazing things. And there’s nothing unique about Australian advisors. That means we need to restrict the ensemble value that we think that we can bring to the world to that country. And so, you know, we’re we’re very much looking forward to quarter three this year, focusing on launching a dedicated area on the ensemble platform specifically for South Africa now, for those following at home. And maybe you guys have been longtime listeners or involved in the ecosystem for a while we did originally try this. But the issue was with it with technology meant that that someone from South Africa had to go on to the Australian wall of content before then finding sort of the side street where South Africa existed. And that was a horrible act. Because it was the only option that we had at the time we gave it a shot. And it just didn’t work. And like I totally get it. I wouldn’t want to do it. If I was if if if if Ensembl was originally based out of South Africa, and as an Australian financial planner, I had to go into the South Africa environment before finding the offshoot for Australia. Yeah, it would, it would feel disingenuous. And so So what we’ve done is we’ve done a fair bit of work, and testing out how we can open up an environment that the home for people in South Africa is the South African home. Now, of course, that they can go on a virtual journey and find Australia, but that is outside of their home. Their home will be every time they log on to the application or go to ensembl.com because of their login. It’ll take him directly to South Africa. Yeah, that’s a big difference. Now all of a sudden we’ve got the same environment as the Australian us So, so yeah, we’re very much looking forward to, in South Africa launching a standalone platform. And, and even once that’s done, you know, there’s no limitation, we want to continue to the UK, we want to go to the US. And once that’s done, there’s no reason why we need to limit it to financial planning. And, you know, I just imagine a world where people join a profession, they open their phone, they click a button they and and all of a sudden their hope, specific to their profession and in within their regulatory environment, in their country. That’s, that’s what I see happening.

Louis van der Merwe
What are the conversations that you seeing that surprising you on the platform, like you saying, someone coming in, it feels like home, yet, the conversations with your spouse and with you know, people in your family are often quite vulnerable? Right? It’s like, Hey, I’m struggling with this. This is the area, all those things popping up, or advisors starting to open up about the shortcomings and these restrictions?

Clayton Daniel
I would say that’s always been a function of it. So if you think about, I mean, like the tech, isn’t that different to say LinkedIn? Right? I when people ask what’s Ensembl I’m like, kinda like LinkedIn for financial planners. And it’s not a great descriptive, but in terms of how to quickly articulate it. So the technology is massively different from LinkedIn. But the mindset that’s curated is, like the antithesis of each other, right? So in in, in LinkedIn, you are the expert, you will i am the expert, I am the person you come to, to get an answer, I am selling myself and I am here for whatever it is that you need, as long as you know, within the area that I deal with, on ensemble, it’s the complete opposite. So you know, it is I’m having issues, I’m having a problem. This doesn’t make sense to me, how the hell do I solve this? Are you guys experiencing the same issues? Now? The reason why, even though the technology is so similar, but the conversation said is so different, is because on LinkedIn, on LinkedIn, I want clients, if there is revenue to be had on ensemble, there’s no client, right? You’re not going to get another financial planner to be your client. And so there’s there is that, I mean, because all it’s doing is it’s taking the private conversations that are happening on text message or email one on one, and sort of scaling that out. So how do I get a, you know, how do I get the collective intelligence of an industry to answer the question? Now, we’re also not the first people to do this, this stack overflow in the developer space, there’s Doximity, in the doc in the medical space, and, and the idea that you that an environment is something you have to apply for, and be accepted into, although it’s free, is restricted in the sense that we’re making sure that only relevant people are there. It, it allows for really just accelerated, you know, 10,000 hours to mastery rule, like everyone’s there just to get better.

Louis van der Merwe
That analogy of this Stack Overflow for financial services, like it just brought to mind this picture with someone can go in and like, Hey, can I use this part of a financial plan? And yeah, no, can I use this piece and now it becomes collaborative, right? And we’re moving things forward, because people are contributing, and they’re saying, hey, this, this old way of doing it is broken. It’s not it’s not working anymore?

Clayton Daniel
Well, the beauty about financial planning is pretty much globally, there’s an under supply and see your neighbor isn’t your competitor. And so and so, yeah, very much. So there are hundreds of documents that advisors have built that is on the platform for you to download for free to use today to edit and use and it’s very Yeah, like that concept of Stack Overflow for those that understand what that is it yeah, there’s more alignment with that platform than pretty much anything else.

Louis van der Merwe
Is this the thing that you needed when you built your business? Like how would this have changed? Clayton? What was your What was your financial planning business called?

Clayton Daniel
Hero Silverstone? And who else was the license in Australia we sort of had these cohorts of advisors and they caught a license and my license was caught Eros and for whatever reason you had to stick the word Horus in your name. So it

Louis van der Merwe
sounds like a very famous actor which was just

Clayton Daniel
ALRIGHT, no it does it does have that Stratton Oakmont sort of element about it which Yeah, I didn’t I didn’t particularly enjoy what I was originally going to call it Silverstein wealth design. That was the name of the company that I wanted. But then when I joined this cohort, and for better or for worse at the time, It was certainly seen as sort of a good cohort to be a part of, but you had to put the word he’ll Ross in your name. So I went from your Silverstone sorry, Silverstone wealth design into your Silverstone. So it’s Sorry, what was the question? i That was the name of it.

Louis van der Merwe
It’s ensemble the piece that was missing for you starting? Ah, that was yes. Like, well, we

Clayton Daniel
Oh, god. Yeah. So that, yeah, it was really like, you know, how do we build? Well, yeah, we built it for exactly that purpose. And, I mean, it’s not rocket science, right? Like, if you get a bunch of people together who all want to get better at the same thing, there’s going to be others that, that are trying to get good at that same thing. And so yes, undoubtedly, had I. But the, also, the crazy thing is, I mean, if I had a practice, still, to this day, I’d still be using it. So um, you know, it’s not necessarily just for people who were trying to get that first 10,000 hours, it’s also for those that are doing the second, or the third or the fourth 10,000 hours, like, the idea is that there was this something, because it’s not for everyone. It’s very specific. If you’re a financial planner, there should be something there. And if there’s not, there’s a space for you to create it as well, like us the question,

Louis van der Merwe
Clayton, how do we create a bridge between these countries? Because we have America we have the UK, we have South Africa, we have Australia all operating fairly similar doing things similarly yet. It’s a little different, like, how are you figuring out this bridge within ensemble?

Clayton Daniel
Yep, so we do a lot of work. And it’s super Shake, shake, and in vogue right now, but we do a lot of work with AI. So behind the scenes, so we’ve been working with AI for over 12 months. And so, you know, long before chat GPT joined the lexicon. Now, the reason why we’d be working with AI is because Alan, we want you to understand what conversations are going on. Because ultimately our business model is once those problems are being discussed, we strip out the the, the names of the people and sort of, there’s very little value in one person saying something. But if 100 People say something, it kind of becomes valuable. And it’s not the individuals that matter in the sense that the volume of people that matter. And so, so our goal is to, you know, understand everything that’s been talked about. And so rather than those problems flying off into the ether, and maybe being solved for it is for for the handful of advisors that are discussing and plus the 1000s that are viewing it, like how do we kind of grab that and extrapolate it and turn it into research as the premise of an issue that we can then do more research into and sort of pay people that are specialists in this area to create content around it. So in each individual, each individual country, there is two elements of what is being discussed. One is universal in nature, in the sense that, you know, how do I speak about cashflow? Right, and one is super regulatory in nature. So on your on your own your side of the Indian Ocean, it is, it’s the topics are going to be slightly different in terms of rules or regulations compared to what’s going on here. And so we’re dealing with AI, because we want to understand the difference between something that’s regulatory in nature or universal in nature. And in terms of bridging that gap. You know, before I mentioned that, there’s there’s there’s going to be shortly two walls on our on our platform, one specifically for South Africa and one specifically for Australia at a certain stage. And I don’t know when this is going to occur, but it’s at a certain stage, our AI will get to a point where it will be able to identify if the conversation set is relevant to a geographic location or not. And if it’s not, then we can share it internationally. If it’s relevant for a Jamaican financial planner, as it is a Canadian financial planner or an Irish financial planner, then everyone should know about it. But if it’s relevant to a particular regulatory geographical location, then we’ll quarantine it specifically to that environment. So that’s kind of I believe, how we will be able to bridge is to make some conversation universal and some conversation specific

Louis van der Merwe
clip and how interested or the association so the financial planning standards boards and financial planning associations are interested, are they in being included in these conversations? Because I can imagine these are the people that are, you know, figuring out the rules and the frameworks for the future yet. They struggled to get people to fill in a 45 minute questionnaire, which totally I must admit I stopped doing halfway. Yes, they must be loving this because it knows it can really fuel and help add value to those memberships.

Clayton Daniel
Absolutely. So we’ve we’ve had a lot of chats with So with the teams, I mean, for right now, they’re just glad that we’re doing it. I think in the future, it will make sense to work with them closer for sure. Yep. So I am excited about what opportunities reveal themselves in in regards to working with them potentially, in the future. But I think we’re on the same path. We’re just trying to both drive the positive evolution of financial advice. And, and I think the fact that ensemble exists and is doing that should as well attract, you know, talent into the industry. I like that one of the major issues with financial planning, if not, the major issue with financial planning, is the fact that it’s not a career path that people set out to achieve. It’s something that somewhere along the line that they stumble upon and drawn to it, you know, investment banking, everyone, you know, the people that are scoring, well, at university know, what they’re doing when they’re getting into a management consulting, this is another career path accounting law, right? Like there are people set out to achieve a certain thing with their career. And yet, financial planning doesn’t currently have a hat in the ring. I think we can do a lot to change that as well,

Louis van der Merwe
I must share with you. I did a presentation at one of the universities in South Africa recently. And I asked the class, how many of you have actually sat in a meeting with a financial planner, there was about two or three people in the class. And so I hope for this to change where people say, Hey, I’m coming into this profession, because my parents worked with a financial planner, because I saw this experience and a change. And they were the bridge between what Clayton so beautifully said the emotional and the rational.

Clayton Daniel
Yeah, yeah, no need to and honestly, I think we can use the ensemble platform to to bring in high quality candidates from from a relatively young age into the profession. Now, that doesn’t mean we just opened up the floodgates to them having conversations on the same in the same area that we still need to make sure that that’s relevant. But yeah, we’re, I got some ideas again, I mean, the first third of my career, I got a while to get this happening, but I’m pretty sure we’ll make it up.

Louis van der Merwe
Thank you Clayton, for joining me today. It’s been wonderful to have you as a guest. I look forward to meeting you in person for an event in the future and building out the South African ensemble advice together. Bye for now.