AdviceTech Podcast #36 – TikTok – Transcript

Peita Diamantidis
Hello and welcome to the XY – no, Ensombl AdviceTech podcast. I should have to pay like 20 bucks every time I get that wrong. It’s disgraceful. I’m Peita Diamantidis. And this week we’re going to deep dive into TikTok, and joining me here today is a well, he’s been outsourced in a past working life, which kind of felt good at the time, I’m sure it’s actually started in entry level client service in financial planning, however, is now a principal of the firm he’s with. And he’s a fellow host on the ensemble podcast. Thank you so much for joining me on the show, James Wrigley.

James Wrigley
inviting me on Pete, I could have a chat with you. We haven’t actually spoken before the kind of I know on the internet, but

Peita Diamantidis
I feel like that you know, a host interviewing a host, we might break the space time continuum or something but doing this. Exactly, exactly. Now super keen to pick your brain on all things TikTok. But I did want to take a moment like we always do to get you to get to know you a bit better through your use of other technologies. So tell us what is your most used emoji? Do you even use emojis? You must show

James Wrigley
I saw that in your questions. Like, you know, what is my most used emoji? I reckon if I got two messages I tried to talk about now what’s it gonna say? What’s it gonna come up with? It’s frequently used as like the laughing face with the two tears and then the next one’s the Brain exploding. And then the next one after that’s the celebration, kind of Papa cracking things

Peita Diamantidis
nice.

James Wrigley
That smiley, nice booties,

Peita Diamantidis
but they’re all quite descriptive. I like it. I am noticing a little bit of a generational difference. And I asked that question. Certainly people more in my generation. And I’m baiting. James without pigeonholing you, you are a millennial, if I had to guess. And I am firmly in the Gen X category in our our generation thumbs up is really popular, right? Whereas for you guys not so much generally. So that makes a lot of sense. How about like you just picked up your smartphone sickly lady, something that like all of us, we’ve got right there next to us. If you had to wipe everything off, and you only had to keep three apps, which three would you keep

James Wrigley
my email, my text, and my phone, even though we’re here to talk about TikTok my phone,

Peita Diamantidis
your phone. So you actually use for a phone really? They might kick you out of the millennial club there. You’d have to be

James Wrigley
very rarely answer it. There’s always a little notification thing next to the voicemail. And then I have to remember to listen to it.

Peita Diamantidis
I’m the same suddenly how are they that many? Oh, I haven’t looked for a long time. Exactly, exactly. So we’ll dive into TikTok I guess I should full disclosure he folks and being a little bit vulnerable given I am you know, Intertek and love tech, I do not currently have a TikTok account. Alright, so fessing up here. So there’s a good chance that some of these questions will be somewhat more idiotic than they might otherwise be. So I’m hoping James, you and the listener can be very patient with me, but I think that’s a good way for us to approach this is you know, from absolute beginner to suit to a guru. So when did you first sort of sneak into check out TikTok? I’m imagine you stopped a bit. Did you for a while.

James Wrigley
Yeah. So So I did. So I would have been sort of halfway through 2023? Nearly, it would have been probably late 2021. I’ve probably opened an account late 2021. Yep. And then, yeah, actually, I can remember being at the FPA conference, which was down here in Melbourne, which was probably October 2021, or something like that. And I, I didn’t know how am I supposed to use this TikTok thing. I didn’t know what it was. Yeah. And I can remember sitting in the audience and I took a video of some performance that was on the like, the closing ceremony thing. And I put some text across it. And I didn’t realize I had a spelling mistake in there. And so I put this video. I had three followers. It’s not like it went anywhere at that stage. But some guy commented on this saying it’d be something along the lines of get your spelling, right. So we probably would have been October whenever that was October, November, probably 2021. Yeah. Okay. Well, the round for a while trying to work out. How do I use this thing? Yeah. For my financial advice, things that I’m talking about on these other platforms? Okay, I’ll try and make that work on TikTok.

Peita Diamantidis
So it was very much you were already and I could see that even from your LinkedIn feed sort of actively putting things out there before that on other platforms. So it wasn’t like you were sort of new to content at all. No, yeah, it was just that this new platform, you know, how do I how do I use it and how do I apply That’s, yeah, I’ve

James Wrigley
been used to LinkedIn in particular, where I put my shirt on and I make sure my background was nice. And then I’d sit there and it was all kind of quite serious. I’d be talking about whatever it was that I was talking about. But I felt that because it was on LinkedIn, it had to be that bit more polished and a bit more professional. And so then it was, how do I then morph that into Tik Tok, which at the time was people miming and it still is mostly dancing to songs and miming and all of these kinds of things. You don’t want to see me dancing, nor do you want to see remind me to a song. So maybe

Peita Diamantidis
I’ll get lots of followers, but I’m not sure to get you many clients, right.

James Wrigley
Otherwise, this platform that seems like it’s exploding from what I see and read, but it’s just starting out in Australia, and I’m dealing with financial advice. I don’t get that to work. So I took a little took a bit of time.

Peita Diamantidis
Yeah. Okay. And just to give us a sense of that, so you might not know off the top of your head. But on LinkedIn, do you have a sense for how many followers you have on LinkedIn, about 7000? baptisms. So that’s quite high. I mean, you, you’ve, that’s a big fee, you know, you sort of without going hard on it, somebody might have one to two hours. But so clearly, that’s something you have applied energy.

James Wrigley
I’ve been, I went hard on LinkedIn very early on. So I kind of got to like 6000, and then between six and sevens taken forever, right? But

Peita Diamantidis
and so to compare it, then, where are you at on TikTok?

James Wrigley
Just about to hit 41,000 on TikTok. Okay.

Peita Diamantidis
And, okay, so let’s then talk about the difference between the two as an example, because it is for all the work you’re doing is to attract clients, I’m assuming, I’m assuming you don’t want to like get on TV or there’s other some other purpose for it. That’s gonna be on Yeah.

James Wrigley
So yeah. Like, whether it was LinkedIn, whether it’s Tik Tok, or whatever it started out as a means to trying to attract clients. I watched a lot of Gary Vee, yes, this might have come across him, I watched a lot of his stuff for years, a little while back. And they kind of had this idea at one stage of mind is like, hey, how do I get people to know that I exist when I’m actually asleep? Like, rather than having to go and talk to this accountant or talk to this mortgage broker? all the normal things that you would do the kind of the networking things? Yeah, I have to, I have to constantly go and see this person, and then these people, and then I’m saying the same thing over and over and over to all of these different people in the hope that one of them likes me, and all of a sudden will will refer their clients to me. And then it clicked on like, I’m watching all of this stuff. This is the internet, I can put a video out on the internet, and some people will watch it. Yeah. And so that’s where it started. Then I guess the differences there just chalk and cheese that the to LinkedIn is, like, I’d be interested to see that the statistics on I suspect there’s more older males on LinkedIn or it would just be my guess, as the demographics are just to

Peita Diamantidis
reflect business generally, probably. Yep. Yeah. Whereas

James Wrigley
TikTok, there’s anyone on every shape and size is, is is on there. And it’s much more kind of playful and new kind of people are more enjoying themselves. People are going there as a bit of an escape and it’s me, interrupting her escape talking about superannuation?

Peita Diamantidis
Don’t you get to have too much fun now? Yeah. Did you do that end? Do you find that it is bringing out more sort of fun or a looser style of presenting because of the environment it’s in or you’re finding you’re relaxing? More into that as you do it more?

James Wrigley
Yeah, absolutely. And then it’s really interesting to see so I’ll record one video and I now put that in a few different places. I’ve become a lot more relaxed with my style of videos. It’s just practice video after video after video after video, the ANDs and ORs and I didn’t mean to say that word and just correcting myself in the video and just rolling with it. That’s normal, you know having a conversation now we’ll we’ll each stumble our words from time to time. Yeah, you get used to that that becomes more real more personable. And, and then it’s interesting to see that if a video does really well on Tik Tok, and it might be me in my hoodie at nighttime, I’ve just cleaned up the dishes and I’m answering some question. I put that same video on LinkedIn it actually does really well on LinkedIn to where I thought I had to be sitting there in my shirt and tie Yeah, be more professional but it’s really me. The lights not amazing the sounds not amazing. I’ve got my hoodie on and as I said, I’ve just clipped the dishes after dinner at nighttime. Yeah, that video does just as well on you know, not to the same extent but but it does well relative to others on Instagram as well relative to others on on LinkedIn. So it’s almost if you can convince users The testing ground? Yeah, I think they are. And then because, well, another place the thing that

Peita Diamantidis
and look an example of what you’re talking about there, where you just sort of correct yourself life is literally what we, you know, I just did in the introduction where I messed up, right? And I said X Y instead of ensemble. And you’re right, there’s a confidence where you just go, well, that’s just what it is. And I’m just gonna pass through. And the more you do it, the more relaxed you are. And I think the audience gets more relaxed with you. Yeah, you know,

James Wrigley
and it’s also what it took me a long while to realize when I first started putting myself out there on the internet, some people aren’t going to like me, and that’s okay. And it’s, it’s, I would much rather that they saw my video and like, this financial advisor wearing his hoodie, I can’t possibly go and see that guy. Forget about it. Great. Yeah, we’re never gonna like me anyway. So my time I haven’t wasted their time, they’ve made some decision on me and move on. Yeah. But, but what I’m actually finding, it’s the reverse. When you’re letting people into the real you have kids running in the background, or I’m outside in the backyard and the neighbor next door is cutting the grass or whatever, when you’re actually letting people letting your guard down a little bit. Yep. The ones that really get the cut through and the response that comes back somebody’s Yeah.

Peita Diamantidis
And look, I am I got wonderful advice some years ago from my speaker, coach Andrew Griffiths, who is wonderful and I broadly good guy, but he actually pushed me hard on this very topic. So you know, really leaning into who you are, and the things you love. And, you know, all that sort of things be. And his view is, if you haven’t got somebody who doesn’t like it, you’re not being enough of yourself. He said it should actually get a visceral reaction. So not not just being objectionable, right. Some people do try that. And, you know, and I don’t think that’s necessarily them being themselves. It’s more just be more you, you know, and, and, you know, attract as much as you repel. You know, I completely believe in that. I did

James Wrigley
some videos, I had a cap on, it was like, it was literally a Saturday afternoon, and I was recording a couple of videos at home, and I just had a baseball cap on. And someone commented on this, I God never go and say you can’t trust you with a baseball cap. Seriously, it’s just that look at my 700 other videos that are here. But the one with my baseball cap, you’ve got a problem, like, okay, that’s fine.

Peita Diamantidis
Yeah. And I mean, you know, take a look at the most dishonest and shocky sort of people historically, and they’re all wearing very, very nice suits with wonderful hair. And like, that’s not an indicator at all guys. You know, you’re right as broken, if that’s the way you measuring somebody these days. But I think also there’s a, there was a conditioning where, you know, polished video like that full production, you know, the full deal was what we expected, because it’s the only thing we saw, because we’re watching TV, and it was going to production. Whereas now it’s the other way. I actually think we all get a bit repelled by full production. I even noticed that a bit with, with events for providers, when you watch them and they’re doing that online thing that’s really a well, well, well produced thing, and it sort of feels a bit like advertorial you know, we’re all a bit conditioned to like things a bit more relaxed now, I

James Wrigley
think. Yeah, exactly. Yep.

Peita Diamantidis
Yeah, for sure. So I’m really curious, because you, it’s not like you sort of started in a, you know, entrepreneurial, you know, you had your own business and started doing this. You were doing this while working within a firm. Now, in principle, of course, but but it is an interesting environment, right? Because some people might think, Oh, I could never do this, because I’m, I’m an employed advisor, what would you say to them about how they could approach this, you know, say, with an employer in a group? What things you know, can they be aware of? Or should they, how do they start that discussion?

James Wrigley
So, I guess you’ve got, you’ve got two, two options with how you can go about it, that is the route that I went down. And that might might not work in every business. And then there’s another so so the first route is just just to do it, rather than ask for everybody’s permission, because then they know the size of the business that you’re in the business network is a reasonable size. This person has to say, is this person to say, Yes, this person has to say yes, we’re the way that I went about it. Back then was I just started doing it. And nothing happened for a long time. So no one really cared. Okay, great. You’re doing these things ahead of compliance every now and then we’ll just let you know just make sure you know, you’re you’re not talking about these things. And you know, there’s this ASIC thing, ASICs just banned this person, just be careful. So you need to be careful of what you’re saying and tread carefully. But, but from where I started was just an element of a hardly had any followers. There was no one really watching what I was putting out anyway. No one really cared. I was just doing this thing and there’s James going to record another video. It’s it’s blown up in the last 1218 months or so. Yeah, to the point now, where people are saying, Oh, what are you actually doing there? And maybe can we try and do something similar and so there’s early conversations I’ve tried to do something similar. Yeah. So that’s the first option is just don’t ask for permission, just do that, you’re gonna have to get a sense of where you work, and is that actually going to fly where you work or not? Fortunately, my manager, still, my manager now has just kind of given me enough space to just do my own thing. And you know, if it works great, if it doesn’t, that’s Yeah. Then then then the other option is to ask the permission beforehand. But you’re going to want to arm yourself, if you’re going down that route. Well, either way you need to, you need to be conscious of it, but you need to just be aware of what you can and can’t say is the biggest thing. So the compliance and licensees and all the rest of it, they’re going to be petrified that you’re going to be giving advice on these platforms. And so there are other financial advisors putting videos out on on TikTok, and some of them were putting some general advice disclaimer in the comments, or the overlaying it on the video, and different licensees will have different responsibilities, different expectations on you for that. So you might want to understand that first. But then I find those kinds of things start to then extend then to start making excuses for doing this, like, I don’t have a great camera on my license at this thing, my licensing that thing, and I’ll get to it, and you do nothing. Yeah. Do it first and then ask for forgiveness later. Look, and

Peita Diamantidis
the thing is, so let’s imagine you’re in a, a really restrictive environment from a compliance perspective. And some people do work in places where it’s just, you know, everything’s watched and monitored. And then, you know, there are lessons from advisors in the states where there’s, I mean, there’s a lot of controls around what some of them can say, if anything at all, and they had to get creative. And so they talk about, you know, everything, but you know, it’s all around it. And it’s and it’s the emotional elements of money. And it’s like, there’s things you can still engage on, you know, so, you know, if you know who you’re talking to, and I’m assuming you’ve, and I can see, even on the website, you’ve like, you’ve chosen people that you’re looking for, you know, a type of client, then they’re handling all sorts of stuff. It’s not just money, there’s lots of things going on their lives. So, you know, maybe it’s about everything else, you know, and surely that’s not a problem.

James Wrigley
And I reckon, probably more than half more than half of the the attracting the the right clients is just constantly showing up. Yeah. So I think it matters less what you’re saying. It obviously matters what you’re saying. But I think it matters less what you’re saying. Versus that you’re constantly showing up. And people I gave it, see it now there’s people that I might have connected with on LinkedIn, someone messaged me the other day, I can look back and I exchanged a message with him something like five years ago, and we’ve had no interaction ever since. But this person’s just been sitting in there in the background must have been watching some of my staff and all of a sudden he sent me a message. Hi, James, you’re thinking of retiring next year? I’ve seen a lot of I’ve seen a lot of your content. Can you help us out? Yeah. And so you know, it is a it is a slow burn for? For a lot of those connections.

Peita Diamantidis
Yeah, it is. It is interesting, isn’t it? That it? The consistency thing. I mean, I’ve even seen it just just with the podcast. So this podcast and these episodes. So I guess when we start like, second half of last year of 2022. We started the advice two episodes. And and what it meant was, there’s an episode being released every week. So it means I’m on LinkedIn every week. Right now prior to that, there was all sorts of other things taking up my time, and I wasn’t quite as consistent. And I’ve seen a significant shift in both engagement and followers and all sorts of things on LinkedIn just because of that people see you and they know they’re there. And they know what the topic is, you know, so. So and that happened almost accidentally to me merely because, you know, Clayton said to me, Peter, we have you to host this and I went yeah, that sounds great. You know, like it wasn’t, wasn’t the LinkedIn strategy, for goodness sake. But you see, you’d start to see that. So I agree with you on that. I guess I do have a question around. And you sort of mentioned it briefly before almost the repurposing thing. When you started on TikTok, were you doing? Were you doing the videos just for TikTok, and then you realized you could repurpose them? How did that come about?

James Wrigley
Yeah, so I was so so the TikTok app is the desktop app is great for you get it out. You talk to the you talk to the phone, they make it really easy to kind of stop and start your video. So you kind of have these jumps in it, which keeps people’s engagement keeps them watching for longer. It’s a really simple app to just put the phone in front of your face record something and off you go and it doesn’t need to be polished it you know, it works really well on there. So initially, I was doing that. The prop them then is I’ve said something to TikTok. But if I try and say that TikTok video, they put a watermark on it, and there’s ways around it, but it’s just annoying to try and get it without the without the watermark on it. And I’m sure there’s metadata in there that if you then put it on LinkedIn, LinkedIn saying on TikTok, and yeah, push it down the rankings, and all the rest of it, then actually reached out to Ben Nash, because he, you know, he jumped on to Tik Tok after I did and was and was doing really well. And he started putting out some videos that had these really clear captions on there. Doing that, because I’ve done captions on videos in the past. And it was always messing around to do it. And he said, I was just the captions app on your iPhone. So anyway, I got the captions app. That means I’m recording the video in the captions app, which is not in any of the other platforms. And then I can just that one video, it’s got the captions got everything on it. And then I can put it in different places. And now it’s in a TikTok is a portrait Yeah, that’s portrait style video you’re putting up because of the because of the success that Tiktok was having Instagrams gone more of that portrait style, they call them reels. And so that that, that that app is really receptive to those types of videos. So then you can put it on there. As I said, put it on LinkedIn, more more people use LinkedIn on a mobile device than they do on a desktop. Yep. So the so the 16 by nine

Peita Diamantidis
works there any portrait video

James Wrigley
works really well there. Yes,

Peita Diamantidis
yes. Well, yeah. Okay. And have you taken a look at or considered YouTube shorts? Have you gone that far? Because it’s a similar? Yeah, right. It’s their equivalent,

James Wrigley
I guess. So YouTube short is similar. The problem that I have problems? Yeah, probably the right word. At the moment, for me, anyway, is that the shorts need to be quite short. Okay. I looked at it, they needed to be 90 seconds or something like that. Yeah. And so the tool that they have is, the YouTube tool is quite cool. You can upload it and you can cut your video down, but I’m trying to get something that I’ve just, I’ve just cut down to try and get into three minutes now trying to get that into 90 seconds. Right? Not many of my videos are that short? Yeah. To then put it onto there as well.

Peita Diamantidis
Yeah. Okay. Okay. And it is a I mean, some of the stuff I’m saying on shorter is actually more like people doing it to to somebody else’s video almost like it’s them taking a snippet out of something, you know, as a way to sort of highlight, you know, an interview somebody did or something like that. So, yeah, okay, so it’s, it’s, um, but I like the idea of, or I’m going to do this once. And then you know, I’ll post it accordingly. I have you given yourself a shedule? Or a day of the week? Or is there any way that you’re doing so it’s not something that’s lurking all the time you feel like you’ve got to do?

James Wrigley
No, there isn’t the for the success on TikTok, it is something you need to do all the time. Yeah, I can’t, I just post one video a week, that’s it’s not going to get it done. Like, TikTok is, and it’s easy to do. It sounds crazy what I’m about to say. But it is easy to do. It’s more of a three or four times a day thing that you need to be trying to do yet. But But again, they’ve built the app in such a way that that that is really easy to do. So you might do one original piece and what I’ve, what I did to get into the habit of having ideas was, if I’d explained something to a client in a meeting, I’d make a note of it at the end of the meeting, and then I just do a video on it afterwards. Or if I’m like, I’m in the office today, recording this with you. Yesterday, I was in yesterday. And I just done something on the whiteboard for a client. We’re talking about contributions here and pensions there. And I just explained something on the whiteboard. And I take a photo of the whiteboard from my file notes. But then also, before I wiped off the board, I just got out my phone as I just had this client come in, and we’ve done this thing and that thing and turn the camera around. And so that made a three minute video. That’s got about six or 7000 views since I recorded it yesterday. Yeah. But back to what I was saying is that TikTok makes it really easy, then, then people comment on there. And you can easily respond to that comment with a video. You can click a button, the comment appears up in the corner and you respond back to it. Yeah. So it’s not like you having to come up with three or four unique ideas every day. Yeah. Okay. You’ve done one and put one unique idea up every every few days. Yeah. And then in between, you’re just responding back to the questions that you get.

Peita Diamantidis
Yeah. Okay. And so in that sense, it’s far more of a conversation. Yeah. Then people might think it is. Yeah, okay. Which makes a lot of sense. And to be honest, that’s probably what’s more appealing to people anyway.

James Wrigley
Yeah, I’m someone that’s probably In a Gary Vee video from from years ago, and again, something that that always stuck with me is like you don’t, someone invites you along to do a presentation like there’s, you know, there’s the ensemble PDK Day coming up, people aren’t going to come up on stage and talk about their thing, someone’s going to ask them a question and they’re not going to respond or they’re going to walk away. That’s effectively what you’re doing on your social media. You put up a video and someone asks you a question. And you don’t engage or you don’t respond to that. You’ve done exactly the same thing as if you’re up on stage in front of someone and someone in the audience has asked you a question. Yeah. So I try to respond back to as many of them many of the questions as I can. And look, it might just be a written response. It might be a video, but you want to try and respond to as many as you can. So as you said, as this conversation that’s going on. Yeah. Okay. People will then keep coming back or keep coming back. Okay, come

Peita Diamantidis
back. Okay. And do you think I’m curious about the next steps? So are you making you know, a concerted effort with some sort of call to action or anything like that to get them off the platform? You know? Or is it just relying on them trying to find out who you are and where you’re at? Like, how do you take get them to take that next step?

James Wrigley
Yeah. So on TikTok, there’s, an Instagram has copied this feature, you can pin a video at the top of your like feed. So I’ve now done and I’ve only recently done this, I’ve got a Hi, I’m James video. I’ve got a this is who I work with video. Yep. And this is what the financial advice process looks like. Those three videos are just pinned at the top one after another. Yeah. And then I very rarely, in the individual videos that I’m putting up, do I say, you know, call me if you’ve got any questions, that kind of thing. But on the, on my profile, there’s a couple of words of who I work with. And then there’s a Calendly booking link and people can book a 15 minute phone call. The few other financial advisors that are doing Tik Tok have now got that are all doing that same kind of thing. Yeah. And they don’t even let it doesn’t even leave the app. So they go to my my profile, they click on the Calendly link, it brings up the ordinary Calendly booking thing. Okay, we have that going rather than going to my personal calendar, we have that going to a generic contact us one. Yep. And then either me or someone else who was available at the particular time that someone shared with the call for Yeah, we’ll, we’ll talk to them and go from there. But there are lots of people that then just go and search me somewhere else. So they’re just kind of fact checking back checking. Yeah, I’ll google my name. So you know, people searching Jas regularly is like the second highest reason why people land on the first financial website and has been for the last year. Okay. And that’s by and large people coming from Tik Tok, that are then trying to see is this guy actually real? Work? And is it a legitimate business? Not a scam? Yeah. And so then in a roundabout way, they’ll make living inquiry through the website sometimes, too.

Peita Diamantidis
Okay. And do you have a sense for the volume of queries that come through? That’s huge. Okay. So it is because I think that’s what you know, and I can hear the advisors thoughts out there as they’re listening. That’s great. You’ve got this many followers, but do they ever do anything? Right? So,

James Wrigley
so, so wherever. And it’s all to do with the consistency of the videos. So if I’m, if I’ve been busy with work, haven’t done a whole lot of videos, they’ll drop off? Yep. And there’s a lag, you kind of got to build the momentum back up again. And then they start to book in, but we don’t have to keep fairly consistent with my videos. will get a dozen inquiries a week. Okay. Coming through, which is heaps, which is heaps, so. So I do some of the I did respond to some of the inquiries. There’s, you know, three or four others that do do it here, as well as the part of the benefit of being in such a big business. There’s a lot of other advisors that can help with inquiries that come through to

Peita Diamantidis
and do you think I mean, one of the things that can happen is people really just, you know, I mean, tire kickers is an awful expression. I don’t think that’s valid, it’s that they have a question that’s important to them. But it’s sort of a one and done. Question. How are you finding that? Are you finding that people do need advice that you then

James Wrigley
there are a lot lots and lot, the vast majority of them need advice. They want to pay for advice, and they they’ve, they’ve drawn the conclusion that we’re the people that can help them because of the videos that have come up. But again, this is something that I’ve learned over time as I need to be careful about what I’m talking about. So as much as I only want to work with a certain type of clients. There’s kind of two main demographics of clients that I want to work with. But if I stray too far from talking about those types of clients and their problems and the things that we’re doing for them, then you get all of these other people that are booking in. And so part of the reason why I do, you know, there’s, there’s a business development element to it. But then there’s also just a financial education piece, I get a lot of action from the financial education pieces I need to be careful of, I put in a few of the, these are really helpful videos, but they’re not the ideal type of client that I really want to be working with. And he’s going to pay the fees that make it worthwhile to operate a business. Right. And so you need to get that that balance, right. Yeah. But the TIC tock algorithm, called the algorithm, whatever it is, whatever behind the scenes, it does an incredible job of putting the video in front of the right person that that that has that complexity or that problem in their life. Yeah, it’s scary to think the information that they must have on on all of the users on TikTok, if they can kind of pinpoint it in the number of people that you that, you know, that you that you’re talking to and say, I’ve seen your videos, and you’re exactly you’re talking about exactly the problems that we have. And somehow out of the 26 million or 8 million people that are in Australia, whatever, it’s managed to put that video right in front of you. So

Peita Diamantidis
yeah, yeah, a lot about you. Well, then it’s a bit of magic, isn’t it? But I do. I do think, you know, what you’re describing there also is, we have to be careful that we’re not doing content just because it interests us, as opposed to attracting the audience we want. And, and if you do want to do that have an entirely different podcast that talks about movies or whatever the hell the thing is that you talk about, but you know, be focused on who you’re trying to attract. Because I agree with you it, you get what you what you ask for. And that’s the challenge is, is you could be resonating with, with, you know, 15 year olds who want to save, save extra money out of their chores, who knows, right? So,

James Wrigley
like I did a few with the hex indexing that that’s coming up. On the first of June, I’ve done a few. I’ve done a few videos on that. And those videos do really well in terms of the vanity metrics, or TikTok because of that it’s a large part of the demographic that’s on there. But they’re not terribly great financial planning clients for the type of work that I’m trying to do. They might be suitable for someone else, but not not so much for me. Yeah. So you got to get that balance. Right.

Peita Diamantidis
And so I am curious, if so the the assumption by most and certainly any of the data I looked at was that TikTok is somewhat well, the world of of millennials and Gen Z, Gen Z. So that’s certainly well, they’re on at first to be fair, so that’s, that’s, you know, young, young, younger folk GSN. Like I’m like 400 years old. Are on it first. However you your target market is some of that but as also people that are a bit older than older than that, are you finding there on TikTok to

James Wrigley
everyone is on TikTok, there is no, there is no age barrier. Okay. Whilst you were talking, I kind of bought up my, my, you can see that, like the insights of the followers of, you know, kind of where they are, and so forth. So, as I said, I’ve got 40,000 or so followers. 30% of them are between 3525 and 3528 are between 35 and 4421 are between 45 and 55. So I would say 6080 80% of my followers are between 25 and 55. Okay, 14% of them are over the age of 55. So they are they’re like you know, about the age pension or health care cards or something like that. And the comments end up being full of these people that that I didn’t think were on there. The other question that I get a lot of is, are there actually people with any money on Tik Tok? That kind of thing? Yeah. And absolutely. Like I put up videos about our people working in tech on their big incomes and their stock, their stock that they get vesting, and then all of a sudden you get someone that calls from Amazon and they’re earning $700,000 a year I know that the wealthiest person that I’ve had reached out not that advice went anywhere. But the wealthiest person that I had reached out. I had this phone call and he said I said I own I’ve got a I’ve done well in my business and I’ve got a few assets at the lawyer told me what’s going on. And he just started talking like what is this guy going to stop? And I think at the end, it was the number was so high, I couldn’t add it up in my head. I had you know, tally it up afterwards. So yeah, yes. All ages are on there. And all, as I said, all shapes and sizes are on there. Yeah, it’s really just trying to talk to the people that you want to want to work with.

Peita Diamantidis
Yeah. And yet look, you sort of got me thinking, because one of the places that I want to start focusing a lot more on is on my generation. So you know, Gen X, which is sort of the Forgotten generation, to be fair, it’s talking about baby boomers, talking about millennials, and then there’s some of us in the middle and we want to get things done, you know, and the, the assumption is on and No, you wouldn’t be you wouldn’t want to be on Tik Tok, because they’re not there. But the other thing is, you know, you can be a louder voice. Because, you know, you’re one of the few that are targeting those people on those platforms. So that’s another thing that I guess I’m just cogitating through now is, is, do you want to be one of 1000s that are talking to those people on a platform or what have you, one of the few that is, and then all of them want to want to follow you know, so there’s, there’s probably, we probably need to just let go of those assumptions, right, we probably just need to go just start talking like this is just start interacting and communicating

James Wrigley
that it is it’s just doing it and it’s, it’s kind of sad, it’s one of the Seth Godin uses this idea of the smallest viable market to you want to kind of be as narrow as you possibly can. And if you work with 45 year old females that are lawyers, and that’s who you work with, if you talk enough about them, you’ll you’ll attract those types of those types of people. And I can guarantee you, they’re on Tik Tok as well. And the algorithm will do a good enough job of putting your video in front of them. Yeah, if you talk enough to that type of person.

Peita Diamantidis
So in terms of who you think, because presumably, you’re quietly watching what others are doing. And you mentioned, Ben Nash, but there’ll be others too, and globally, talking about financial services on TikTok, are there any that you think, you know, do, they probably are people that do it really well, but are there any way you think, wow, that’s just not going to work. And it didn’t, whether somebody’s tried something else, like, that’s just not how you behave on this platform.

James Wrigley
So you need to the, you need to get your point fast, right on there. And so there are a few other financial advisors that are that are trying it, and they, they’re trying to keep their punch line back here. talking, talking, talking, talking, and the punch line of what I’m actually trying to say is back over here, okay. But on TikTok, someone’s already flicked off by the time you get to that punch line. And so there’s a few tricks that you need to try and do to, to get the point across of what you’re trying to say right at the very beginning, because most people sit on this thing called the for you page, and they just flick, Flick, flick, Flick, flick, and if and if your video doesn’t catch them in that first one or two seconds, if they can’t understand what you’re going to be talking about, you want to go on. So it’s okay to have this long video, but you need to help them at the start with it. So you know, there are others that I’ve seen. And they’re not necessarily just financial advisors, but others where they’re trying to use it for mortgage broking or whatever else they’re doing. And you there’s nothing there to hook them at the start. So they have Tiktok have this thing where you can put a, an overlay on the video. So if you’re looking at on my on my page, and you see all of the videos in one go, it will give you an idea of what the video is about. But that but that only shows up if you’re on my page, if you’re scrolling through the for what’s called the for you page that that overlay, like a thumbnail kind of thing doesn’t appear. Okay. So if you’re just relying on that, no one’s gonna know. Yeah, so some of the things that I picked up was you want to put some text on the screen about okay, what am I actually talking about? So someone can in Half a Second say what I’m going to talk about and if that’s of interest to them, they’ll stick around and watch the video if not, they’ll they’ll move on. Yeah. And then the other bit is about and this applies for videos that you’d put anywhere is making sure you’ve got the captions on the video because most people I think tend to watch the videos either the volume really low or the volume off altogether. Right few people are actually sitting there with the volume up loud and

Peita Diamantidis
because we’re dual absorbing to I mean I do it all the time we’ll have the TV on and something’s on and my husband’s watching the footy or whatever and I’m I’m screw up scrolling, you know and of course I’ve got the sound off then. So you know we will all do need to adjust to that I had I had a mate talking about it and the and this is generational so I do apologize but the the analogy he gave to how we need to approach these videos is we need to we need to do them like cliffhanger did cliffhanger was one of the first movies ever. That was an action film where they had the action as the first thing that happened in the movie. Prior to that there was always this slow burn built up and then there was the big thing Whereas cliffhanger was like, oh my goodness, right at the beginning, hope to see it and then you couldn’t look away. And he said, that’s what we’ve got to be doing. You know, it needs to be upfront.

James Wrigley
Yeah, that’s it. So when you when you’re talking to your particular type of clients, you know, you’re a 45 year old female lawyer, you want to get that like right at the start? Yeah, the guy next to me, I’ll listen to what this guy’s got to say. Yeah. Whereas if you leave that right to the end, they’re not there anymore to say that the end? Yeah. And that’s probably

Peita Diamantidis
true of, you know what with any of our writing, even though you might be doing a LinkedIn newsletter, or any of those things, we probably need a bit more need to be a bit more respectful of people’s time in that sense. You know, not many people have time to sit down, to really absorb and just go, you know, what, I am going to sit through this long thing, knowing that you’ll get there eventually. Most of us are just trained for it to be shorter. Right. And we trained to need that hook. So, you know, we probably and I mean, maybe we’re one of the worst, or maybe laws worse, but but when we do pontificate, don’t we I mean, all of our documents include pontification. It’s just torturing our clients. So yeah, okay, so that’s fair. So let’s talk anything about I don’t know the way you’ve set it up from a two factor perspective, like Has anybody ever tried to hack your account you know, or anything like that or create a copy or that sort of stuff? Yeah. Tons

James Wrigley
so my account get my account gets copied regularly. Yep. On TikTok, they any variations I think my name on this James Wrigley are and I am James Wrigley. But then when you look at my page, it just says James rectly. So all of these variations of, you know, you can look at words. And if you get the letter at the start in a letter at the end in your brain kind of already knows what it is. Yeah, any variation of starts with J and ends with y. And as a W somewhere in the middle. Yeah, they’ve just, they just come up with these pages all the time. So I actually have to go and search my own name on Tik Tok, and go and unblock and ban these, these accounts. Okay, so it was an obvious had to stop people being able to save my videos, because people were saving them and making duplicate accounts, where they’re using grab 30 or 40 of my videos, make a brand new account, and then go out and connect with all of my followers and, and send them messages, you know? Yeah, text me on this WhatsApp number, that kind of thing. So that is that is all over TikTok. That’s the scary bit. Yeah. Whereas that hasn’t happened to me on any other platform. It’s only happened on there. Yeah. So then every now and then I just put up a video and say, you know, beware guys, and you can do this, this green screen thing. So I’ll take a screen grab of all of these fake accounts, and it’s behind me whilst I’m talking. saying, you know, be careful, you know, I’m not going to go on here saying text me on this WhatsApp number, if you really want to talk to me, there’s a link in my profile and an old, you know, I’ll call you from, from the booking that you make from there.

Peita Diamantidis
Yeah. Okay. And look at something we’ve just all got to be ready for, you know, it’s happened to us on Facebook has happened, you know, on all of these things, I think we’ve just got it like you say, be aware of ways that we can a protect ourselves, but also protect the public, you know, and that, I mean, that’s a bigger and bigger concern, isn’t it these days is that somebody’s not just that they might pretend to be you, but also will lead somebody astray while they’re pretending to be you. You know, that’s the last thing you want. Yeah.

James Wrigley
In a roundabout way, talking about money and finances, and that’s, you know, that’s where the scammers want to be to try and rip some money off you. So we’re already talking about things that are that the scammers are going to love. And then if they can take the, the, you know, the relationship that you’ve built with these people online and try and rip them off, it’s it’s not great for the brand and all the rest of it, it’d be looking after these people.

Peita Diamantidis
Exactly. Now, I’m curious. So So clearly, this is, you know, part of the attraction funnel, and that’s what it’s doing. Are you using it in any way for current clients? Like, is there any way you’re using the content or that you’ve found current clients commenting on the fact that they’ve seen you online?

James Wrigley
Yeah, so yes, so I guess it’s attracting clients that are then continuing to watch my videos anyway, once they actually become clients. And so that that works really well. We’ve used some of my videos as ideas for building blog posts for our business website and that go into the newsletter so you can kind of can see all this in this video did really well, people must be really interested in this particular topic. Okay. We’re about an idea that will do for the so then the content writers that do the blogs for our website, they’re always looking at my tic toc and seeing what’s working and what’s not using that as ideas. Then they’ll write something and then every now and then they’ll they’ll embed my video in that in that as well, so yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. It is being used in other means. Yeah.

Peita Diamantidis
Yeah. And I think that’s one of the things I’m and I know I’m bad at it but I think in the industry generally we are is, is not taking full advantage of every piece of content you’re creating, like really not utilizing it, repurposing it, turning it into something else a blog gets turned into a video, it gets turned into it, you know, like, we just don’t do that enough, which

James Wrigley
takes a lot of time, unless you’re paying someone to do it. It takes an extraordinary amount of time, like I do my own videos, and posting and editing those. Most of the time I’m doing that whilst I’m on the train commuting some, somewhere home, well, I’ll record a video during the day, I’ll save it in the drafts there and then edited and stuff on the way home. But But then if you’re if you’re running your own business, and then you’re trying to write your own content for your website and repurpose it, like that’s gonna take days and days and days, yeah, to be a content generator, yes, let alone a financial advisor at the same time. Yeah.

Peita Diamantidis
And I guess that’s, I mean, you and I were talking off air before we started with before we press record about, you know, banking, some of these episodes we do for the ensemble podcasts. And it’s, it’s about, you know, sort of knowing that you’ve got some such that our wonderful producer Kieran can then be releasing them appropriately every week. And I guess, you know, is there any element of you doing that where you like, you’ve got a thought, you do a video, and it just goes into your bank of things, and you’ll get to that editing, and then you’ll release it over time? So is there is it is there a narrow gap between when you’ve recorded and when it goes live on TikTok? Or are you finding your bank them up?

James Wrigley
Yet, so TikTok, it’s almost instantly what I was doing on LinkedIn years ago was it was a bit more sheduled. I think I was putting out a video on say, a Tuesday and a Thursday or something like that. And those videos, because the tools didn’t exist to make it really easy to edit and do the captions and all the rest of it back then it was it was a fair bit of work, I’d have to record it and have to export that to my computer, I’d have to do this thing I’d have to do that thing was a whole process. And so in that environment, I would record a whole lot of ideas, then over a period of a couple of weeks, I would do the editing that I needed to do, and then just release them slowly. But because the tools are now so good on your phone, it’s almost instantaneous. I’ve done it. I’ve thought of it before, well, then I’ll record this video, and I’ll post one today. And then I’ll post on tomorrow. And every now and then I do it. But now because it’s all just so fast between me recording a video, and might take me three minutes to do a few touch ups at the end. And then it’s ready to go and post that. I just posted once I’ve done I just put it out. I mean, on one day, I’ll put out three videos, and then the next day I’ll do nothing. Yeah. Oh, well, doesn’t matter. I don’t think in the in the TikTok universe, it matters that much.

Peita Diamantidis
Okay. And I guess that’s probably interesting insight for people. Because certainly the feedback you get about LinkedIn is that very much matters. So the timing of when the post goes up, and therefore when people respond, whereas it sounds like the algorithm for tick tock, which you would expect is different. You know, because they don’t it’s not business related. It’s not for certain hours of the data.

James Wrigley
And they have, so you want it you can get on the on the creative side of the of the app. They can give you some history of when people are actually watching your videos and timeline. And and you get I get this peak at about 7am and people are watching was having their breakfast or something and then it dies down through the workday. And then it really ramps up towards 9pm. Yeah. And then after 9pm It falls off a cliff. Everyone goes to bed. Yeah. And so I have found that if I post in those hours, between about seven and nine, there’s a large proportion of my followers are online. Yeah, and those videos, if the videos half decent tend to do really well if you’re, if you’re playing that game, getting it in that window. But outside of that, I found it hat doesn’t really matter that much. And they actually have actually have quite a long lifespan content on LinkedIn. Unless it does exceptionally well is dead within a couple of days. You’re looking at it it’s well down even though there’s not that much content being posted on LinkedIn. It just they just don’t keep that post alive. Yeah. Whereas some of my videos I’ll have posted them might have been six months ago and for some reason it’s just appeared in someone’s feed cage of keeps just keeps coming up. Okay, but the life expectancy of a TikTok video is a whole lot longer which gets back to I don’t think it matters that much when you’re really posting it.

Peita Diamantidis
Yeah, okay. Well and that’s good because that that can take away one of the many things we overthink we’re doing these things is on Wednesday and I’ve posted and you know all that sort of stuff. So if you can sort of get that out of your head and just doing it, then that sounds to me like a good plan. Is there any any plans you have that, you know, to progress beyond what you’re doing now down the track? You know, is there any ways you plan on taking it further?

James Wrigley
So, you know, I mean, I’m really enjoying making the content. So it’s more about, it’s more about rather than taking that further, it’s more about evolution of what I’m actually doing from from a day job perspective. Yep. So like, I’m also a host of one of the ensemble podcasts, which if I wasn’t doing these videos, that opportunity would have never come up. Yeah, no, that wouldn’t have happened. So. So different opportunities for different things do start to present themselves. As it from a business development perspective, it’s working so well, that that’s been giving me other opportunities within the business here, sort of as a result of that, I’ve built a much bigger team of people around me, you know, I’m in charge of a team of 11 or 12 people now, whereas a few years ago, it was just me, and then I had an associated rise, and all of a sudden, it’s this massive team. Yeah. Which really wouldn’t have happened if I wasn’t doing this. So it’s not so much a change in in doing that, it’s more about how can I, how can I adjust what I’m doing in my day job to ultimately probably do more of that, whether it’s, you know, have our own podcast here, do more of these videos, try and train others on it and do a bit of a have a bit of a training academy in house to try and get more people doing this kind of thing? That’s probably the changes that are more likely over the next 12 months, I think,

Peita Diamantidis
yeah. Look, it’s it’s, all of us need to go through these sort of adventures to find the thing that really resonates and lights lights us up, and it can take a long time to find Yes, you know,

James Wrigley
like, if you went back, if you went back and asked the year 10 me at high school to say you’re gonna be doing a podcast and putting these videos out. And, like in a, Clayton and Emily have have asked me along to be one of the one of the host people for the PDD. And yes, times, like, I’m going to be standing on a stage what that’s just crazy. That sounds absolutely crazy to me. But you know, year 10, high school me with a No way, you can’t possibly do that. But as I said, you know, try and try and try and find stuff that you really enjoy. And I’m loving it.

Peita Diamantidis
Absolutely. And the thing that’s different these days than it was years ago is years ago, only people with a certain style training and background ended up being those speakers or ended up being you know, like it was a very, it was almost like the sort of news reader approach, if you didn’t look like a news reader, you know, have that style, you are never going to, you know, become one of those people. That’s just not the case anymore. Every voice is welcomed and encouraged. And so that does mean if that if you enjoy it, it’s just finding the audience that loves your voice, you know, who resonates with it, and you don’t have to be the most gregarious or the loudest or the funniest, or any of those things. It’s just got to be you and the you that resonates with them. Yep. For sure. Have we missed anything? You feel like? You need to

James Wrigley
think so? I don’t think so. There was some of the tips on actually using the platform itself with the the captions and make sure you’ve got a bit on there to kind of grab the person’s attention, or at least tell them what you’re going to be talking about in that in that video.

Peita Diamantidis
No, good.

James Wrigley
I think that’s probably it. Yeah,

Peita Diamantidis
look, and and clearly, we should all go and check you out. That’s the first thing I’m going to do. Exactly is my little one to add to all the others. But, folks, if you’d like to find out more about James, then his LinkedIn LinkedIn profile will be in the show notes. But of course, you can just listen to episodes of the ensemble podcast too. He will be appearing back in his world on his now What day are you James on Fridays? What

James Wrigley
are you Thursdays?

Peita Diamantidis
All right. So we’re we’re podcast buddies. It’s all good. So thank you so much for joining us, James. And just sharing all of these insights. I’m personally very grateful. And I’m sure lots of people out there will have got a huge value. So thank you so much for your time.

James Wrigley
Thank you, Peita. Thank you for having me.

Peita Diamantidis
So, do you use TikTok from a professional perspective, to attract leads or to you know, to potentially get new clients or get a bigger audience? I’m betting probably not most people, most financial advisors or people working in financial advice aren’t as I understand it, there’s a few standouts like James and Ben, but but there’s lots that aren’t on there. So I’m curious, you know what, what that conversation prompted what you think about hitting onto tick tock I love Have you to share your insights on the ensemble platform? And, you know, maybe any further questions you have or curiosity you have about using Tiktok. As for my thoughts, you know, there’s a, there’s a couple of things that really stood out for me there. One is, is we’ve really got to stop assuming, which members of the public are aware, and can they afford advice or not on? And is that generation on this platform? Or not? You know, and, I mean, I did some digging before the interview, looking at the proportion of Tik Tok users and what generation they’re on. And then, and, you know, sure, there’s a lot of young people on there, but like James said, you know, there are Gen X, you know, and, and, you know, there will be even some baby boomers on there, right. Now, the interesting thing about all of this is, you know, Gen X, for example, the next big generation that are going to be approaching retirement in the next 10 to 15 years. So, you know, there’s real opportunity here, and I think, we’ve just got to get out of our heads and our assumptions of, of where people applying. And I put myself firmly in that, too, because I had made the assumption that it probably wasn’t for my audience. So I really think that’s important. But to James’s point, you know, who are we trying to attract? narrowing that down and just talking to them, you know, being that voice for them, I think is really important. And then, you know, aside from that, you know, we just got to try these things out and give them a whirl. And, and start, even at the very least, stalking, you know, just get on there and start looking at what people do and, and check out the way they do it. You don’t have to do the same though. And I think that’s the other thing that I think is interesting, if you sort of line up, James and I right next to each other in terms of style and approach, and, you know, you know, here’s me, you know, give me a mic, and I’m happy, right, and, you know, I’m happy to talk about anything and love being on stage, you know, all these sort of things. You know, I’m that pain in the ass. Whereas, you know, James is a more considered and thoughtful sort of approach, maybe even a bit quieter. And I think the mistake we make is assuming that people don’t need to hear both those takes, there’s going to be people that resonates well with mine. But there’s equally going to be just as many if not more, that resonate with Joneses. And it’s a mistake to think that look, people just aren’t going to want to hear from me, I just think that’s a mistake. Each of us has our own take our own unique lived experience that we can share. And of course, you know, our insights as it comes to finance. So, you know, I think we sort of get out, get over ourselves a little bit, and, and own it own, what you’re about why you think it, why you think you can really help people and start talking to them. So I’d really encourage you to, to sort of get out there a little bit. And if you’re worried that nobody’s going to like or look or follow then you know what I will so if you’re concerned you’re not going to have a follow on any of these platforms reach out to me and I will be one of them. I promise right here and now you’ve all heard it so you can all keep me accountable. So now as you know, I you know, often get asked what it takes to become a real bionic advisor, you know that that advisor that’s got the right tech for their practice, and it’s just keeping it HMI humming and and the answer is simple. It’s just about curiosity. And that’s the one thing that I have in spades that I know adds real value to our practice. So to get your curiosity muscles working, as you know, each week we have our curiosity corner app that I share that I just want you to have a little looky loo and check it out and see what you think now, this week’s curiosity corner app is called llama life. You heard me right, folks, the animal llama l AMA. The app is llama life. You can find it at llama life.co That’s double L ama li F e.co. And their tagline is say goodbye to never ending lists, and hello to daily bliss. And what I love is next to that is an image of this cute cartoony llama and it says, time to focus no problema and it’s like it’s dorky as all get out. And as you can tell really appeals to my sense of humor. How can you not want to check out that app? Right? I mean, for me, the minute I swear I’m like, Yes, I want to I want to know more. So this is sort of for those of us that you know, really find ourselves waking up to a really long list of to do’s things that have been nagging at you for weeks you need to get done. You might start on your list and then you end up abandoning it, abandoning it to sort of check out more in Horton stuff that you get distracted by. And the list you have to do is just keeps getting longer and longer and longer. And it becomes so overwhelming that you can’t even look at it. Like it’s just, it’s quite distressing in that sense. And, you know, you feel like you never start on anything. And so you sort of go to bed every night with this monster list, and it’s just a towering over you right day in day out, and is quite demoralizing. In that sense. What llama life does is it turns your tasks into manageable bite sized chunks, right? So it’s just trying to get you to focus on one task at a time, it sort of celebrates with you and you cross off a task. And it honestly looks like lots of fun, like it really is designed to be a bit cheeky, a bit silly, and a bit fun. But what’s interesting to me is as I dug further, and I looked at a lot of the reviews and comments about the app that the popularity has come about, because people who have ADHD or ADD have found it immeasurably valuable, it has really helped them break through, give them extra focus on just what they need to do today, right and just take some things off the list. So to me, that says a lot. If if people who you know can struggle with that focus, by definition of a condition they have their this is this app really resonates with them, then I think you know, lots of us could probably get some benefit from that. So go and check it out, folks. Let me know how you go. And I myself will be playing with it and seeing what comes of it seeing if I can knock off a few things off my list and feel that little bit more productive in the day. Welp, that’s all what all we’ve got for you this week, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you’ll get your advice tech fix automatically sent to you each Friday. And of course, you’ll get to hear from James each Thursday. So you know double treble there. And if you are keen to hold, you know a team building event, for your financial advice, practice abroad or maybe in your dealer group that really sort of ignites their curiosity, then I would love to run and awaken the misfit within workshop for your team. You know, we get them out of survival mode, we sort of move beyond just adulting and sticking the hamster wheel and we move them right into adventuring in life. I love the conversations and the connections created when we do these workshops. They’re truly incredible to watch people light up and get to know their peers better and getting to get to understand what they’re all about and what they want out of life. And you know the team build their curiosity muscle muscle and learn a skill actually in curiosity that they can then apply in the practice for future innovation efforts. So it’s sort of got benefits personally but also starts to build that imagination capital for your practice. If this is of interest, then please reach out to me on LinkedIn. Forward slash Peter M D. That’s PE it a MD? Otherwise, I look forward to turning up in your earbuds next week. And remember advice explores Stay curious.