#94 Ashley Quamme – Transcript

Louis van der Merwe
Welcome to another episode of Ensombl Advice South Africa. Today, I have the privilege to have with me, Ashley Quamme. Ashley, thank you so much for joining me today. It’s wonderful to have you here in studio.

Ashley Quamme
Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Louis van der Merwe
We connecting over different time zones. And the first thing that popped up was kind of kids and how that how that fits into a large. But before we get around to kind of family and and how that fits in. You are a trained family therapist, but also a financial therapist. How did those two worlds meet?

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, so initially, it was trained in marriage and family therapy and my specialty really in couples work specifically. So all of my postgraduate training and clinical practice being in couples work. I’m married to a financial planner. And so we have interesting dinner table conversations around the overlap of our work, or I feel so badly for our children, they will likely need therapy one day as a result. But some of it also, you know, more specifically noticing, and having an ear kind of trained for the financial difficulties that couples experience and the pursuit more formally, around financial therapy, coming out of a desire to need better training myself, and how to help my couples navigate these difficulties that arise within the relationship.

Louis van der Merwe
Actually, I think that’s such a wonderful place for us to start, the the thing that comes to mind is oh, you and your husband must have this figured out you must have the best relationship, your finances must be perfect. And anyone in the client looking in or anyone else to get you in? is the perfect example. I’m wondering what your responses to that. And you know how often you hear that?

Ashley Quamme
I do hear that quite often. And I know that this is just an audio so people can’t see my face. But usually I make some face of like No, by, by no means do we have it all figured out. I will say that. I am very proud of us. And the work that we have done to get to where we are both financially and relationally. Clayton and I met in college, so at 19. And as most 19 year olds go, you don’t have it figured out. There’s a lot of growth still needing to be done. And we were married at 22. So you can also imagine how you know from a maturity standpoint, and financially, Oh, you didn’t have it figured out. I will say that we have committed to creating goals and shared vision. And that commitment to creating couples goals. And creating a vision really has led us to getting to the place that we are at least now financially where things feel a lot more comfortable. Like many couples, though, we have our fair share of arguments and tension points. I like to think that I am always right. And I know that’s not what a couples therapist is supposed to stay home. But I do like to be right and enjoy being right. Thankfully, as I’ve matured, humility has become more of a friend. To me, and you know, at least the same for Clayton. But, you know, we at least strive to have conversations even if they are difficult, whether it be about finances or relationships. And really that commitment to each other in our relationship has gotten us this far, at least 15 years.

Louis van der Merwe
It feels like we need to have Clayton on this call to action, actually get his part of the of the conversation. Tell me a little bit about your conversations with a couple, right, you mentioned now figuring out these joint goals and immediately, I think, hey, that’s that’s some of the work we do as financial planners. But how does that conversation go in a, in a therapeutic manner compared to you know, what a typical financial planner might have, if you have had the privilege of sitting in on some of Clayton’s meetings or if he’s shared some of the work with you?

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, he has. And you know, I do a lot of goal setting. You know, obviously, we do that within therapy. And as you said, within financial planning meetings, the goal setting that we that I at least really do is incorporates a lot more emotion, at least then from what I’ve seen or heard, and not just from Clayton’s work, but others. And so we look at, you know, what things will feel like emotionally, not just on an individual level, but also relationally to in any marriage going about things. You know, solo, you know, there’s a lot of missed opportunity there. In my opinion, at least, because one of the greatest joys of having a partner, married or not, but just having a partner is that you don’t have to do life by yourself that there’s someone else there to carry life’s burdens with you, right? You’re not in the trenches alone, if you will. And so, you know, certainly there’s benefit to, you know, creating goals and being happy, but also during times of hardship, you know, talking about the impact of maybe not reaching goals can be just as important too. So, the work at least or the conversations, I should say that I have with couples sound a little bit different, not maybe quite as heavy on the numbers focus side as maybe with financial planners. You know, we don’t work through the six, I guess, stages of financial planning, you know, there are a lot more centered just around the emotional connection, or maybe currently disconnection depending upon where they are at present.

Louis van der Merwe
That’s, that’s such an interesting thing to say, in terms of leading the conversation. And what I found myself trying to do is to find that balance between, you know, what is the emotional ask, because we’ve seen that more and more right, our emotions, driving our decisions, and not the hate, remove your emotions from the decision that I love how how we have this expectation that we can just remove emotions, like, maybe we can talk a little bit about that fallacy around. What happens when you avoid of emotions? Is that even such a thing?

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, I don’t think there is. We’re not robots. Well, you know, we are sentient beings, meaning that we are feeling beings. And so one of my I kind of laugh, because I do receive a lot of typically male partners, who say, like, oh, I don’t have emotions, I don’t do emotions. And, you know, I have to very gently and sometimes incorporating some humor, remind them that they aren’t human, you’re alive, you have them, they may be tucked away, pretty deep down in there. And, you know, for those clients, maybe in particular, who have a reluctancy, to explore those emotions, typically, there’s some sort of valid reason why maybe there’s an experience a negative experience that they encountered in their past. And so part of the work at least that I enjoyed doing is also uncovering maybe certain blockage points or stuck points, from an emotional standpoint, because, you know, uncovering and working through those, really, from an individual and relational standpoint, will afford that client and couple, just greater freedom moving forward, especially from a financial standpoint, you know, as well, so we all do have emotions, I’m sorry to burst any bubbles out there, who may be thinking that they beat like some kind of emotion game like a beat the game, immune to emotions? Yeah, no, I don’t think you would be alive. If you didn’t, didn’t. You know, one of the frameworks, I guess I also offer is that emotions are necessary for survival. You know, they help guide and lead us. And I find that so many people try to avoid them. And, you know, that can create a lot more tension and friction. And so, you know, creating at least maybe our relationship with our emotions to where we can lean into them a little bit more and try to befriend them and understand what they’re telling us. And wherever they’re trying to lead us. Sometimes there can be some value there as well.

Louis van der Merwe
I recently read an article where the author mentioned that we are relying on our emotions to actually take action. And I was wondering financial planners listening to this, how could we potentially help our clients channel the emotions to actually lead to an outcome, assuming the outcome is in line with the objectives without forcing it too much, but gently guiding someone? What are the other things that you would say? What are the skills maybe that’s required from a financial planner to be able to do something like that?

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, I would validate anyone out there who is maybe feeling a bit uncomfortable right now and maybe just hearing your ask me about not knowing yet when my answer would be. Because I know for many advisors, that’s pretty scary. Because, you know, they may be thinking, Well, I’m not a therapist. So if I uncover some type of emotion, and what do I do with it? Once it gets there, you know, I don’t want to bring something up and then not have the skill set to be able to navigate that so an answer just give

Louis van der Merwe
the box of tissues and runaway, which I’ve heard. Don’t do

Ashley Quamme
that, though. No, just let them let me know when you finished Dre, right or cry with them? Do you know but being a great emotion detector starts with your own comfortability with being able to tolerate emotions. And so kind of doing a gut check. You know, if you feel like your clients starting to head down that path of becoming emotional or expressing some emotion like that, You know, opening up your palms, from a practical standpoint, hearing opening up your palms, because it’s hard to be really closed off, if your palms and your body’s you know, open, but just opening up yourself and just saying, Okay, I don’t have to necessarily fix this, right now I can just let them be an experience, their anxiety, their sadness, their worry, and I am not called to fix the emotion. Going into fix it mode is one of the biggest mistakes and advisors can make when clients are emotional. And know that sounds may be a bit incongruent with how advisors might be thinking, but your job is not to fix their emotions there, let them experience them as they are, you can, however, validate what they are experiencing, using, you know, empathy, validation, active listening, so from a skill set standpoint, just saying something, you know, as simple as, hey, it seems like you’re really worried about this, or I hear that you’re really worried about this right now. And you’re worried makes sense to me, that can go a long way in regulating, you know, a client’s system and settling them down, as opposed to maybe offering some sort of a quick fixes solution of, hey, you have enough, it’s going to be okay, you don’t need to worry, that doesn’t cue safety from a brain standpoint. And clients are more likely to react with bigger emotions, right to really dig their feet in and kind of tell you all the reasons why they should be worrying. You know, I’ve heard a lot of advisors talk about that experience that the more they try to offer a fixed solution, like the more emotional their clients get, and there’s a reason just for membrane standpoint as to why that is they need to feel some safety before they can, you know, calm down. Emotionally.

Louis van der Merwe
You make such a great point, I think specifically around that question around, will I be okay, you know, often the conversations would be, I’m worried about this thing. And will I be okay, and what I’m hearing you say is that, the more we say, yes, you will be okay, don’t worry, that’s maybe not the most elegant way of the most helpful way. Because outside of the meeting, there can’t matter. Well, now I feel worse than before I came in, I want to ask you around over identifying with what we would label positive emotion. So maybe there’s a sense of euphoria, or, or something’s do good. And I’ve experienced that where I get excited alongside the client, and we both kind of are almost over identify with that emotion. And then, you know, that also leads to bad outcomes. How would you treat something like that? Because I think that’s maybe less obvious than the the more typical intense emotions of sorrow or grief, maybe that we’re dealing with?

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, I think that, you know, identifying with positive emotions feels good for us, right? It’s something that we’re really drawn to. And so, you know, there is, I guess, maybe part of me that’s like, yeah, I identify with it, right? Like, if there’s something to celebrate, maybe a milestone that’s been reached, or what have you, like, it’s okay to show that. I think there’s a level of discernment that has to come in, and maybe knowing, you know, how far to go. And when, you know, as the professional, as the practitioner in this in this relationship, you know, when to also maybe kind of dial back. So I think, you know, practicing some discernment there can be really helpful. But, you know, to the degree that you’re over identifying, it may also be helpful to scale back and kind of examine why you are over identifying, like, what is it about this situation, or this client that resonates with you so deeply that you are maybe in fact, over, you know, reacting kind of in this moment, even if it is in a positive way, I’m just being able to understand that in a much deeper and more connected way, really can help prevent maybe any unwarranted or negative outcomes, as you said,

Louis van der Merwe
I see. I’m wondering about the kind of relationship that a therapist or even financial therapist would have with their clients because in, in financial planning, often, friends or family members would ask you number one financial questions, but also maybe for you to act in a role as a financial planner? Is that something that can happen in a therapeutic space? And should we learn from that as financial planners around setting boundaries with relationships?

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, so as mental health practitioners, and I’ll speak at least here in the United States, I don’t want to make the assumption that it is this way globally. But you know, we are taught to really be protective or around having boundaries. So, for example, not seeing friends or family members, there would be a conflict of interest there. Because of having a dual relationship, I hear a lot in the financial advisory space that some of those roles are a bit different. And, you know, I want to be cautious to like speak to that, as you know, I don’t want to shoot on advisors, but I do think that, you know, really paying attention or exploring more the impact of working and engaging with close family or friends, just one that can have on the personal relationship side, especially if compensation is involved, or exchange of compensation is involved in that. So, you know, boundaries is you know, less about keeping people out and more about, you know, you as the practitioner, ensuring that the space that you are working in feels good, and it’s healthy for you. So, if you have friends or family members, where maybe you’re working with the amount of guilt, or obligation, because I hear that a lot, you know, really kind of asking yourself is that the Is that what’s what’s also best for me, and then for them, personally, and professionally, I don’t know how I would work with a close family member or friend, at least therapeutically. And then you know, see them at like the, you know, family gathering next month, that would be really uncomfortable for me. But I also know that the nature of the work that I do is a little bit different, sometimes than what advisors may be doing, although, yes or no, I guess, advisors are dealing more with the numbers, you know, kind of side of things. And oftentimes client clients share very deeply personal, you know, things about them. So, I don’t know, I feel like I’m rambling a bit and trying to answer your question. But I’m also noticing that, like, I feel a little uncomfortable, myself, like thinking about just dual relationships, and working within that space, too. So that could just be my own biases, and part of my own training.

Louis van der Merwe
Thank you for answering that in such a kind manner. And I think it’s something that is is complex, and we don’t often talk about, sometimes there’s an expectation in our own or family or friends just hey, just helped me with this thing. You’re a financial planner, you can do this. But actually, that relationship is so much deeper. And there’s so much contracting that needs to happen and, and and the boundaries that you mentioned, like that’s something we don’t often speak about. I want to delve a little bit more into creating boundaries, specifically, maybe if you setting up your own business or starting out your own firm as a financial planner, how do we start cultivating boundaries outside of a work life so that, you know, this doesn’t consume us and it doesn’t become a whole life, I was just curious if you have some thoughts around that,

Ashley Quamme
that is a journey. And to like I’m myself on that journey, as well. So I you know, even though I’m 15 kind of years into like practice, it’s still like a journey even for myself. So I offer that really just because I don’t have it all figured out, even though I’m a therapist putting my own boundaries in place around work life balance, but I do find that at least for myself, like when I stick to the ways in which that take care of me as a person, I do show up better for my clients. And for my family as well. What that looks like is not taking on at least therapeutically, I don’t take on quite as many clients now is what I used to. And so I have more space there, I know that it is not in my best interest if I see more than four clients that day. And so for me, clients sessions are an hour long so if four hours of my day or more or more than four hours on Mondays bend, seeing clients you know, I don’t feel great. And so really sticking to that has been helpful in a way that allows me to do just better work with them. So my offering I guess around that would be is figuring out, you know, the time spent doing certain tasks or certain items, how does that feel for you? You know, kind of before, during and after, and taking really an honest inventory and at least as best as you can trying to set up such a schedule that you know, it really honors that and put Tech spat. So my emotional bandwidth, that is really what clients are paying for that, in my knowledge, certainly, but, you know, clients are paying, you know, for that bandwidth that you have, and that knowledge and so, you know, paying in my, you know, paying attention, I guess to like, you know, okay, how much bandwidth do I have to give? If it’s not a match, then, you know, clients will feel that from you, you know, eventually at least,

Louis van der Merwe
do you think the same goes for financial planners? Should financial planners have sufficient emotional bandwidth? And, you know, like you said, your clients are paying for that. And it feels right, in a therapeutic sense. But is that same expectation there for financial planners? Do you think it will be there in the future? I think it should be. But again, this is me shitting, on all of this is fine. This is the best place where you can do this. Yeah, might be wrong, but

Ashley Quamme
we might be wrong. And I’m always open to being wrong and honoring different opinions. But yeah, I kind of think so. And some of that is, because if I put myself in the role as a client, and I come to you, and I’m needing help figuring out this thing, this struggle that I’m having, you know, I want you to be able to think critically, thoughtfully and creatively around how I should be navigating this not just from a number standpoint, but also emotionally too, if you are so tapped out that when I come to you with a problem, and you come across as dismissive, because you’re just tired. That’s not going to feel great for me. And I’m really going to question then, you know, is this the type of advisor that I want to be with, even if maybe it means to be paying more for someone else’s, like services, I, again, personally would rather pay more, knowing that when I am in a time of need, you know, this is somebody that I can depend on, that will show up for me. And not only do they have great strategies, but they can also see me as a person and be there with me.

Louis van der Merwe
There’s kind of this ebb and flow that comes with emotional bandwidth. I was reading a recent article by the Financial Planning Standards Board, which governs the South Africa is one of the regions similar to the CFP Board in America. And one of the skills that they now require, and this is part of the curriculum is for financial planners to be emotionally intelligent. And there was first time when I saw that and I was like, wow, yes, absolutely. It was right next to tech savvy, which now also equally celebrated. Yeah. Maybe emotional bandwidth, or managing emotional bandwidth is a bit a little bit more nuanced around. Yes, it’s coupled with emotional intelligence, because it can feel like this big thing. Yes, I need to talk to my client about the emotions. But where do I start?

Ashley Quamme
Right? Yeah, I think that the entire emotional intelligence comes with knowing how much bandwidth you need. Right? I talked to clients and advisors about coming off of autopilot, you know, and being really intentional and looking at what you’re doing. Yes, sometimes we need to be on autopilot, like with our day to day like lives, certainly. But if we’re constantly working in that, you know, space or that lane, you know, and we’re not taking the time to really dive in to pay who am I? What am I doing? Why do I think this? Why do I feel this? Why am I doing this? You know, I think from an emotional intelligence standpoint, it really lessens that degree there.

Louis van der Merwe
Actually, I’m seeing more and more financial planners start asking about someone’s mental health, not just to look at the quality of decision making, but sometimes some of the mitigation can impact our decisions. And I think as a financial planner, that’s critical. Are you starting to see those type of conversations where financial planners are more interested in someone’s mental health, or at least the kinds of interventions that are happening as part of the holistic financial planning?

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, I am, in some of it, you know, from a starting out place is how do I make referrals for maybe mental health therapy? So advisors recognizing that, I think something more is at play here, or my client is, you know, very candidly sharing that they struggle with anxiety or depression or addiction. But I don’t know what to do with that. You know, they are advisors are starting to want more information on how can I connect with mental health clinicians? How do I even make a referral? I created kind of at the beginning of the year this little guide on how to make a mental health referral and while much of it is centered towards you know, the US based mental health system, there are some apples ability, I think globally at least an understanding a general process. But yeah, I do see more and more advisors having an interest, whether it’s in making a referral or just understanding the underlying issues may be that might be at play when it comes to a client’s financial decision making

Louis van der Merwe
one acre how important that is having a network of people that you can refer to, in South Africa, we have this wonderful online solution called therapy now, which anyone can check out. And it’s essentially a group of clinicians that someone can dial in, you know, virtually, and have a consultation. And as such a subtle way, instead of saying, you know, are you are you speaking to someone, I think it’s the way of delivering it in a in a genuinely helpful manner, to provide them with resources. And you know, something that’s popped up twice in my career is the thoughts around suicide. And that can be very daunting, specifically, the first time I can remember I was very shaken and unsure of what to do, and how to handle this thing. And it kind of was this curveball that I didn’t expect? How would move how would you Guide Financial planners to kind of tackle something like that, we’ll try and try and provide some support. When that comes up.

Ashley Quamme
I think that one of the biggest mistakes I see is or hear about is advisors just moving past it. Because they themselves are uncomfortable or don’t know what to do. And so I think, if that is you, then I am giving you permission to say out loud to your clients, Hey, I am hearing that you’re struggling, I am at a loss for exactly what to do. I don’t know exactly how to instruct you, you know, as far as what you need to do, but I’m here to help you figure it out. I think so often, as practitioners, we are expected of our we have this expectation of ourself that we need to know everything, and we need to know how to respond to things. But sometimes the most genuine responses saying, I don’t know, there’s a very just, I don’t know, human kind of element there and saying I don’t know, and it comes across as genuine and empathic. So it’s okay, I guess to respond with I don’t know exactly how to help you with this anxiety, or I don’t know how to help you with those suicidal thoughts. But I know that it’s serious. And I’m committed to helping you figure out you know, or who to connect you with. That’s a beautiful way of responding. That’s genuine, that’s honest. And beyond maybe that, you know, I like to coach advisors on reflecting what they observe. So if you have a client, maybe perhaps that’s not overtly saying, I struggle with anxiety. Um, that’s one of the more common ones when I see. So they’re not overtly saying I struggle with anxiety. But everything like your spidey senses, I guess, are going off at like, I’ve been real person super anxious. You can reflect what you observe. And what that might sound like is something like, Hey, I’m noticing right now that your leg is fidgeting really bad, you seem kind of antsy, kind of fidgety? And you seem to be talking, like, really quickly. And I don’t know, there’s just something about the way that you’re saying that speaks to me in a way that I’m wondering if maybe you’re feeling a bit anxious? So posing kind of what you’re observing with more of a question, like, I’m wondering, instead of a direct statement of you look anxious, it’s gonna go over a lot better, it leaves room open for interpretation. And really just further conversation around that. If the client responds with Yes, like, these meetings make me so anxious every time I come in, I have a hard time. Because I just feel so uncomfortable. I don’t understand what’s going on. You know, I get really worried even outside of here, if they’re like just vomiting, like all of this stuff, After saying that, then, you know, being able to offer something in the form of resources, like, Hey, I hear you and that makes a lot of sense. I have other clients that struggle with that too. And here are some wonderful resources for you. If you choose to follow up with them, you know, outside of our session that can really help with that anxiety. I think that’s a wonderful way of communicating that you see them, that you’re here to help them and that you care about them. I find that and I don’t know if this is your experience, but I find that sometimes advisors are worried about offending their client, and understandably so like I definitely get it But I think it’s more offensive to ignore what you see, and maybe, perhaps know or feel and not speak to it than to, you know, very humbly and gently put it out there to them.

Louis van der Merwe
It’s almost like you’re robbing that client, have the opportunity to be comforted slightly, in a way of just noting and normalizing and saying, Hey, I’m here. And we can figure this out together. Yeah, it reminds me of that video that brunette Bran Brene. Brown created. It’s that little cartoon around sympathy versus empathy. And if someone’s listening to this, please google it. It is wonderful. And I show

Ashley Quamme
it in my trainings out over here, but you know, this video.

Louis van der Merwe
So I mean, it’s, it’s this, I think it just was an antelope that, like, just climbs down the little, little ladder and goes, go to oh, let’s go.

Ashley Quamme
I say don’t go be the bear,

Louis van der Merwe
the bear. And it’s, it’s just that thing, you know, we don’t have to fix. The first time I went for therapy, which was using therapy now was a great experience. Because I thought, if we’re going to tell our clients that, hey, this is something valuable, let’s lead by example. And the therapist asked me, Are you a fixer? Or are you comfortable sitting in a space where you can’t fix? And that made me think that, hey, we often sometimes we can fix, right, we can put on our technical hats, and we can go in and fix the financial plan. But the 80% life creates these opportunities where we don’t necessarily, we’re not necessarily the ones that should be fixing. But if we empower our clients and get them to fix, Hey, isn’t that a much better outcome for them?

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, I think the tricky part here for advisors is that, you know, I go back to discernment, there is a level of your job that is fixing, right? And so knowing that line of where, where’s the fixing versus not fixing? It’s tricky. So I, you know, I validates the complexity of that, one of the things that I encourage advisors to think about, or that I’ll say, is that sometimes when we are fixing, quote, fixing, um, or have that pole to fix, we, in fact, make it about us, instead of making it about the client. So I think that, you know, our intention is to make the client feel better, or to make that situation better. And so we impulsively jump in with, in our mind some kind of brilliant solution or strategy. But instead, in that moment, what we’re actually doing is we’re making the situation about ourselves, because we’re uncomfortable with their distress, we’re uncomfortable with whatever it is that they’re talking about, are experiencing. And so our jumping in to fix it is really a way of easing our own discomfort, not our clients. And so I think it can be valuable to ask yourself some times, you know, I’m feeling this tug and pull to fix it. Is this so that I will feel better? Or is it really to make my client feel better? And that requires some honesty? You know, to, but I think being able to answer that, or ask that question of yourself can be a helpful guide and knowing is this a situation that I need to just listen actively and provide empathy and validation? Or do I need to provide some kind of strategy for them?

Louis van der Merwe
We’re back to increasing your emotional bandwidth. And I might add, you could just ask, you could just say, what do you need from me? Or how can I help you? Yeah, it takes away all of that pressure from having to figure out the best solution. approach it with some curiosity, always find that out?

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, I agree. Absolutely.

Louis van der Merwe
I want to know a little bit more about the emotional bandwidth and how that has changed over your over the last 15 years as life changes, right? You’ve had two kids? Does it come and go? Or is this something that you can grow over time? What are the things that we can do? Because I really think that we maybe have a crisis of emotional bandwidth that is really not, it’s probably a single lane as opposed to a highway. What are the things during our lives that we should be looking out for that might be signals that, hey, this is a time when my emotional bandwidth is probably going to be a little bit more narrow, and I need to be cognizant of that.

Ashley Quamme
I think if you are looking at any type of life transition, maybe smaller. So kids, even starting back to school, so currently in the US, at least here in Georgia, our kids are on summer break right now and so schedule O’s are a bit more relaxed, I find that I have more bandwidth in the summer. You know, maybe that’s just a lot more vitamin D and sunshine, as well. But the start of the school season I know gets to be a little bit more stressful or around the holidays, these are maybe not large kind of transition points, but more regular occurred, ones that sometimes can have impact on our bandwidth. So knowing I should not be seeing a lot of clients may be around me on the holidays or the end of the year, maybe you can’t help that. If you can’t, then finding ways to take care of yourself outside of that. But being able to anticipate what lies ahead can be helpful from just a practical scheduling standpoint. Sometimes we can’t anticipate that and we find ourselves just kind of in the muck. And that’s like, a core here. One of the biggest indicators, and this is something that I have found in my own work, too, is that if I see a client on the schedule, and I get that, gosh, I’m just not looking forward to that meeting. Or if I have the thoughts of like, you know, I wish all of my clients would cancel today, that’s a red flag that I don’t have a lot of bandwidth, then I need to be doing some other things to really take care of myself, so that I can show up in a way that’s professional, that is also congruent with how and what I value.

Louis van der Merwe
This almost sounds like a little bit of stress management. And I want to I want to share with you, you are probably familiar with this, but for the sake of the listeners, there’s a scale of stressful life events, the homes rise scale, which are often like looking at because the one right at the top, the most stressful life event is the death of a spouse. And this is according to the the list. And obviously each person experiences things different differently. But what I found interesting is that there’s a couple in here that we might not think about and you know, towards the bottom is things like changing eating habits, changing sleeping habits, changing church activities, changing residents, minor traffic violations, trouble with the in laws, if my in laws are listening, that’s how these, there’s so many things that we don’t typically label a stressful life events. But especially when they compound, it can just be a little thing that might show up as you know, like I mentioned, a, um, that this was the tipping point and now I’m in a point where I really need to, to intervene and figure out that minute management around stress, oh, financial planners good in managing their stress levels?

Ashley Quamme
I don’t know you tell me I think that they are likely no different maybe than the rest of us from a professional standpoint. I think one of the you know, one of the commonalities, at least in financial planners and mental health practitioners is that we are in client service industries. And you know, our job is to serve, right our, our clients and you know, that also looks like you know, not just from offering strategic you know, plans but also hearing the stories, there is such an impact to you know, hearing and taking on things you know, from an you know, verbally auditory, you know, standpoint that we don’t really realize how that plays a role in our own bandwidth or our own stress. I have learned over the years that there are certain topics or issues that I really cannot work with so grieving couples over the loss of a child that it’s not good for me I can cannot take those clients on and work with them ethically. And so you know, being aware of you know, if you are an advisor and maybe you work with a lot of widows or you work with a lot of older couples who are you know, maybe having end of life conversations and really moving into that kind of last and you know, stage of life, there’s a toll that that can take you know on you and your own stress and bandwidth and so not discounting sometimes, you know, just the conversations that you have with clients and what that can really do for your overall mental well being.

Louis van der Merwe
Thank you for saying that Ashley and I think it’s such an important point. For advisors listening it is okay to refer a client to someone that might be better suited they are 1000s of clients to work with you will not be in shortage of clients. And actually what I’ve experienced is the more you refer out the more just come and and then you know people that you really gain energy from and that you might be better suited to help Come across your path, and you can actually live your purpose this. This sounds like a very stressful profession, both both the therapy and the financial planning. But why don’t people sign up for this?

Ashley Quamme
I don’t know. It’s, it’s very rewarding work. Very rewarding work. But I think there was at least at my and some naiveness, to what all it would entail, you know, early on.

Louis van der Merwe
And I think actually, this approach does make it easier than trying to fix everything, especially things that can’t be fixing the emotional intelligence means that you can actually show up in a way that’s helpful, and in my mind is a lot less work than doing things that are not helpful. What is your training and work look like? With financial planners, if someone maybe wants to sign up for some of the coaching work? What does that engagement typically look like from a duration and cost and maybe content perspective?

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, so I offer coaching, just one on one coaching. And so that really gets to be predetermined by myself and the advisor. And so most often, when I see our advisors that want to meet either monthly, or every other month, you know, in coaching on, you know, specific aspects to their own maybe emotional intelligence, I also offer a case consultation, too. So if they’re just maybe specific cases that are troubling them that they really would like some guidance on, you know, I do offer just one on one case consultation. And then really, what I really love is joining and aligning with firms, in what I call a fractional way. So being able to be a team member with them and bringing a lot of the, as we’ve been talking about the emotional intelligence aspect, but more specifically, the financial psychology, financial therapy competencies, bringing those to firms and helping advisors to be able to incorporate them in the work that they do with their clients, whether it’s through assessments or coaching, what have you.

Louis van der Merwe
Wonderful is that kind of that’s not working with the direct end client that would be working within the team and maybe that advisor and helping them within the business.

Ashley Quamme
Yeah, yeah. So those three that I talked about would be, you know, non direct client roles that I like to work with advisors on. And so the packages around that are different, there’s information on my website, around that, but shoot me a good old fashioned email, and we can have a conversation, I like to say, I have this little plaque and you think it was Brene Brown too, which makes me laugh, that everything is figured out edible. And so you know, if there’s an interest there, and I’m able, you know, it falls within I guess the scope of my practice, then it’s figured out double, we can figure out a way I want

Louis van der Merwe
to share this story with you, because I think you’ll enjoy it. My two year old was climbing over a little couch that she has, and she was starting to tip over and I said to her name’s Ramey, Ramey, figure it out. And now every time she does it on purpose, she says Dad are figuring out figuring out so we are born to figure things out. And, you know, I would urge advisors to maybe cultivate that two year old within them to figure out this work that we’re doing and to engage with, with you, we’ll definitely add your contact information on the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. Is there any parting wisdom, or funny stories or things that you want to leave with the audience or, or anything that comes to mind?

Ashley Quamme
I don’t know of anything, at least wisdom wise, of that, I would say, maybe just an offering of validation that I believe that all of you out there are doing the best work that you can. And so taking time to just appreciate you know yourselves and how hard you work for your clients. I hope that maybe you do that. If you don’t then know that I see you. Even if we don’t know each other, I see the work that you’re doing and it is appreciated. At least in the clients that I meet with. That tells me you know how impactful the work that advisors are doing in their lives.

Louis van der Merwe
Thank you, Ashley. It’s always lovely to hear that and I can can definitely echo that. Bye bye