#97 Louis van der Merwe – Transcript

Louis van der Merwe
Welcome to an episode of Ensombl Advice South Africa. This episode will not have a guest, it will only be me sharing some of my research and work that I’ve done for recent presentation for the Financial Planning Institute, called practice management workshop on the psychology of financial planning. And this is something that pops up a lot. People asking, What should I do to expand my human skills, we hear about people saying that, as a financial planner, you can’t only rely on your technical skills. If you want to be relevant and deliver good quality advice in the future, you need to work on the human side. But where do you start, I want to share the route that I took to expand on the more personal skills, not only the technical piece, which I think is important, but I also think that people are now maybe focusing too much on the human side, and sometimes neglecting, delivering good quality advice. I see that a lot when it comes to estate planning. I see that a lot when it comes to technical retirement planning and cash rebuilding, we can’t only rely on the human side, right, we have to still deliver good quality financial planning. And so I’ll unpack a little bit of what I shared at this workshop was an online workshop with three other speakers that also all kind of moved right into this. There’s more psychological aspect of financial planning, not only the technical piece, and so I’ll share a little bit of the research and also some of the work that I think is is applicable to South African financial planners, because remember, this Certified Financial Planner designation, outside of outside of the United States fall under the financial planning standards board. And I think that’s a good place for us to start. If you head over to Louis CFP, dot Sierra de de, you’ll be able to download a copy of my slides that I used. And you’ll see reference to some of the books that I’ve read, which I’ll share a bit in a moment. But also the financial planning standards board global standards that was released earlier this year. I think it was around March. And the first board for us to look at this, you know, like what professional skills is the financial planning Standard Board, saying that we need to have as financial planners now this is already in practice, right? This is not something that we need to think about building five or 10 years out. This is skills that we already need today to deliver advice, according to the financial planning standards board, and they govern the CFP designation outside of America. The first one that’s not going to surprise anyone is building trust. And I want to actually read the section day on building trust, establishing trust in a professional relationship, be honest fee and act with professionalism when dealing with the client and others be accountable to clients and others for your conduct. Now, you might have heard of the fiduciary standard, which essentially just means act in your client’s best interest. That can be really tough, can be tough, when you might be incentivized to do something that’s not in your client’s best interest. But this always comes around, right, when clients feel that we’re in it for ourselves, we’re in it for the money, we need to sell a product to them, they can sense that. And I think if your career is going to spend more than a couple of months, which unfortunately for most financial planners not always the case. If it’s going to spend more than a couple of months, it’s important that you build that trusted relationship. Now, maybe not only as a trusted adviser, it’s also a term that comes up a lot. But maybe it’s a team of trusted professionals within your business. When you think about delivering advice. It’s having that relationship and building trust with your client, which ultimately comes back to do you deliver on the things that you promise? Right? Does it does it do what it says on the box, building that trust can take long, it’s also something that is broken down very quickly. It’s when someone starts sensing that, hey, maybe this person is doing it, providing advice for their own best interest, right that they are delivering financial planning, not necessarily with the client at mind. And you could type into Google the trust equation, which also comes up quite a lot. It’s kind of building how to build trust and at the bottom of that equation, you divide through self interest. So the more self interest you have, the lower your trust will be or your client relationship. The second skill is client engagement. So establishing good rapport with clients, and others. And here they have items saying be supportive, empathetic, and patient with the client create an environment that support collaboration and mutual agreement with the client and others do effectively with a client objections and complaints, support the client to achieve a financial planning goal by providing guidance and motivation. Now, a lot of these terms might seem foreign, right, empathetic, and be patient with the client. That comes back to our own emotional intelligence, right? For us to be able to be empathetic, we need to identify and relate with the emotions that our clients are experiencing. Be careful of not feeling the same as your client. Because oftentimes, that can lead us to almost like a bit of display where we sit with our clients, and we both might feel lost, we both might feel overwhelmed by the situation. I really like the approach of maybe thinking about instead of empathy is thinking of compassion, right? What can I do here to support my client, and I really liked that first section, they’re saying, Be supportive, and empathetic, what can I do to maybe make this situation slightly more bearable. And that’s not always having to fix the situation, you could be in a situation where you cannot fix it, someone might have gone through a retrenchment might have lost a close family member or spouse. That’s not a situation that you can fix. But it is a situation that you can identify, and you can support your client on a more emotional level. The more you do this, the more you will see that client sometimes just wants an ear. They want to be able to sit and have something to share with you, but also have that other person, be present, and listen to them. And that builds on that trust, that first skill that the financial planning standards board are saying that we need, right, so we have building trust, the client engagement, and all of the psychology of financial planning sits around this client engagement. The second or the third skill, at least talks about effective communication, exchanging ideas, thoughts, opinions, knowledge and data so that the message is received and understood with clarity and purpose. The bullet points that they’re heavier saying use active and reflective listening, and nonverbal skills when engaging the client and take time to understand the points being made by the client. communicate information and ideas verbally and in writing in a manner understandable and accurate to the client and others support the client to achieve financial planning goal by presenting logical and persuasive rationale. So the client, or this is an interesting piece, because within the financial transition, straining, one of the first tools that we get taught on is what they call communication preferences. Now this is not Do you prefer phone calls or email, this would be something a little bit deeper, this would be do you want me to move quickly through the ideas and get to the bottom line? Or do you want me to spend more time explaining each of the items and how they might impact you. And within the communication tools, it’s literally taking someone through a set of preferences and helping them select which ones they more relate to? And which ones do they allow to receive better information so that when you say something, or when you communicate as a financial planner, that client is actually in a position where they can hear what you’re saying, where they can understand the signal through the noise. And this is an important piece, because we don’t spend a lot of time understanding our own ways of communicating, let alone the way our clients want to be communicated to and worth. And really I would, I would urge everyone to think about communication. And when you are sending something out when you’re having a conversation, just having a look at what your client is engaging with. I could do they zone out at some point in the conversation. And do they drift? maybe thinking about something else? It’s really helpful to have two people in a client meeting, because then the other lives and maybe it’s an associate advisor, they could be looking out for signs that clients are disengaging, because when we’re in this process of talking or explaining something to a client, we might get so excited or we get so passionate about a specific area that we rush through, and we might lose the client or leave the client behind. Yet sometimes just checking in and maybe not asking, you know, do you understand because no one no one wants to nod their head didn’t say no,

I don’t shake their heads and say no, I don’t understand. Please explain this again, ask a question like, Does this make sense? Is this helping? Is this what you’re looking for? Does this add to the clarity? Or, you know, are you left more confused? Make it make it safe for that person to say, well, actually, I didn’t really understand that I didn’t get that. Please explain that again. So the effective communication is a key piece and ties in with the engagement with building the trust. Then skill four, is around coaching, provide guidance to the client on personal goals, and help the client to make decisions and act upon them motivate the client to make an act upon decisions. This is one that takes a little bit of training. And I would urge anyone in South Africa to look at the thought Smith’s coach training. It is a group of professional coaches, master coaches by the designations called MCC as they offer coach training. And it’s typically someone maybe within the human resources, space, someone that deals with employees within their business, or someone that wants to become a professional coach. Now, I’m not saying, as a financial planner, you need to become a professional coach. But the guidelines of Coach Training is very valuable when it comes to things like communication, client engagement, building trust. But also, what you’ll notice here is that they talk about that taking action piece, motivate the client to make an act upon the decisions. And a big part of coaching is the premise that the client already has everything they need to solve the situation. And this situation might be something as simple as their being stuck around a decision. Or it might be as complex as, you know, a midlife crisis. And everything around them feels like it’s crumbling, the role of the coach is not to fix, it’s there to facilitate and help that person to clarify what it is that they already to do with the existing set of resources that they have. And a conversation, a coaching conversation will typically have a type of framework. Now there’s lots of models, and there’s a few good books on understanding coaching models. But if you think about it, you want to start a coaching conversation with two bookends, the one is opening up the conversation, and trying to understand what it is that that person needs from you today, within thought Smith’s a great kind of short trick is to say to someone asked them, at least for them to explain what it is that they need to put it in the words that I would really like to and then fill in the blanks, but and then fill in the blank. So it might be something along the lines, I really would like to make a little bit more provision for retirement, but I struggled to take action. And so that would be the thing to work on and really clarify that. Give it back to the client and say is this is this the most important use of our time today. And then you want to put a timeframe to that you want to say well, in the next 25 minutes, we will have a conversation. And at the end of the conversation closing that bookend, you can reflect back on what that person said, you could say, almost a client or Mrs. Client, you said to me at the beginning, this conversation, you’re struggling to make provision for retirement, through our conversation, as it become clear now what you need to do. Is this what you expected from the conversation? And almost always they would say no, it’s not what they expected. They they received so much more. So those are the kinds of two bookends if you think about the beginning, and the end of the conversation, and in the middle, you want to walk them through removing some roadblock that they have. So thinking about almost starting with, you know, if there was no limitations if money wasn’t an issue for you, or if your salary increased or your salary doubled tomorrow, how would that have changed your problem? And then bringing it back to the current reality? So we’ll actually well out of these potential areas that we have or potential tools to use to fixing your solution. What else is they kind of a brainstorming idea to come up with more and more ideas and, and your role there as the coach is to really motivate them and to get the creative juices flowing so

they can start thinking about ideas that you may never have thought of. And I think that is why the site College, your financial planning is also such a valuable tool, because it takes away that pressure on the financial planner to have to come up with the perfect plan. If we can only invest in the best unit trust or mutual fund, if we can only have the exact date of retirement and the exact amount of years in retirement, this will work out perfectly. But we all know, reality doesn’t work like that. And the client can come up with various ways that, you know, we might not have thought of additional income streams, additional businesses, maybe using some of the people in his life, some connections, to help him promote his skills, right ideas and things that we would never be able to think of because we’re not walking in that client shoes, and then filtering the conversation down from the various areas down to action points. So Well, you said this is the area, what is it that might hold you back from doing that? How will you keep yourself accountable those kinds of questions, and the coach training really helps. And this is something that you need to practice constantly. Even this week, I’m attending a refresher course, by thought Smith’s to just try and keep those coaching skills relevant. Now, it doesn’t differ that much from counseling. In fact, I think those two walk quite closely together, the counseling skills might be a little bit more relevant to people going through something very traumatic. But the coaching approach really is similar. It’s saying that, how do I listen in a way to make that person feel really supportive, supported, acting in a supportive manner, and helping them to find some, some clarity and some ideas of how to tackle the situation. So now we have the first four skills. So we spoke about building trust, the client engagement, effective communication coaching, I’m going to move on to the next. Next one, which is client advocacy, put the client’s needs first, and ensure needs to be met, understand the client’s wants and needs and deliver financial planning recommendations, services and products to support the client to meet them exercise autonomy and initiative on behalf of the client, in the performance of professional skills. This might sit slightly different. If we think about the coaching area, we, you know this, you might bring a little bit more of your expert hat. But you still need to be able to identify the client’s needs and wants. And those are very difficult things to do. It’s difficult to just ask someone, you know, like, actually, what do you need? What are we planning for? Morningstar has a great paper that they wrote called mining for goals. And when you read through that report, they have a very high percentage of people that when given a master list of goals, so think about a list of other people’s goals. People go back to their top three goals. And I think about 60% of them changed one of the top three goals compared to before they saw the list. And they said, Well, this is the most important thing for me. The old mutual savings monitor report that comes out every year consistently puts retirement goals at the top of someone’s financial goals. So it would be a good bait to think that when you’re meeting with your clients, especially those ones, maybe 10 years or so close to retirement, that that is top of mind for them thinking that at some point, my formal career is going to end and I would need to have access to some money. I’ve also heard people talk about making work optional, which I quite like I like that wording because it promotes this thinking of some control. I do say well, how much money would you need to have or to get to a position where work is no longer compulsory. We work is optional, where you could choose what to do with your time and your energy. And now within our business, we approach the goals planning side by looking at someone’s values. And we’ve used a bit of a goal sorting exercise, which basically means that you have a long list of different values or a value sorting exercise. You have a long list of values which we’ve created in the form of gods. And you will see this in the slide. When you look at the slides on Louis CFP that’s here the data and you download the presentation, you will see those cards and we help the client to kind of group them into values that they really resonate with ones that are not as important ones that are not important at all. And then when putting those those value cards on each of these piles, you will discard the ones that are not relevant to the client. And you would ask them to go through the same thing again, with a now shorter list so that you get to maybe five or six goals. And that’s really very, very valuable. Because when someone talks about what’s important to them, you can bring it back to the values, you can say, well, how does this fit in to your family values or your individual values. And when you talk about, you know, having a trip around the world, you could imagine that somehow adventure as a value could fit back. And we’ve seen that with a few clients, they’ve, they might have very strong values. But it’s, it’s so difficult to come up with your goals and ambitions for the rest of your life when it comes to your finances. That, you know, we tend to just copy other people. I want to be financially free, I want to have flexibility. I want to be able to retire, you know, those are all things that are maybe important, but it maybe doesn’t align that deeply with our own personal values. The next skill on the financial planning Standards Board list of FINANCIAL PLANNER professional skills, is critical thinking actively and skillfully conceptualize, apply, analyze, synthesize, and evaluate information gathered from the client, analyze facts to form and judgment, analyze and integrate information from a variety of sources to arrive at a financial planning, recommendation, adapt thinking and behaviors as information or situation changes. And as I read this, I think that we might see artificial intelligence, solving a big piece of this analyzing facts to form a judgment, analyze and integrate financial information. As humans were not that great at gathering a whole lot of information. Right, we would use financial planning software to capture a lot of the financial planning information. But if you’re not certain of where that client is heading, what’s most important to them, or what way to communicate that you can come up with a great solution, yet the communication might be difficult. Skill seven, that I think is linked to this is identify and solve problems, use established processes or methods to find solutions to issues, apply mathematical methods or formulas to identify solutions, conduct appropriate research when performing analysis, and developing financial planning recommendations. Now, these are all up the technical alley, and you can see that if you are not trained, and if you don’t have these technical skills, the critical thinking the problem solving and even skill eight decision making, which talks about selecting between two or more alternatives to reach the best outcome will be really difficult. If you don’t know what all the common pitfalls are, or the practical things that actually really make a big impact on a client’s life, it would be difficult to help guide our clients between making different choices or weighing up different choices and recommending a route. And I think for any financial planner that has had some experience with clients, you have groups of clients where they would allow you to make decisions alongside them. But then you have some clients that want to outsource the decision making that one is say, well, as a financial planner, I’m here because you know better, you need to select the portfolio, you need to select the product that fits best with me. And I think going through your communication preferences, really spending time understanding your client would help us to narrow down a portfolio or product that would be suitor client. But what will help more than that is having some kind of house view within your business, some kind of preference. Now that might be a preference around. For certain types of clients. We only use life annuities. For example, clients that have smaller retirement funds and clients that, you know, require a very high income at retirement that the investment portfolio might not be able to sustain your business could potentially have some kind of guideline to say, for these clients. We only recommend life annuities. And for those unsure of what that is, it’s essentially buying an income for the rest of the client’s life where you can choose if that income increases with inflation or stays the same. And you can also choose if it stops at the end of the first person passing away or the second person if it’s a couple and you can have these house rules. We have tried to do that within our bus snus, and things that you might want house rules on all these options and retirement, it might also be fee guidelines to say this is our house view in terms of our fee structure. This is our house view in terms of how much offshore exposure someone should have. That could be a really valuable guideline to stick within a specific range to say, well, actually, if you are not retiring in South Africa, potentially your offshore exposure should be 100. But if you are planning on living in South Africa, there has to be some money in your home currency, just to take out that risk of the volatility of the currency. So that might be really valuable. You could even think about, you know, guidelines around how much someone should save. I will caution you here that the guidelines are oftentimes things that clients hold on to, you know, those rules of thumbs, we all of a sudden, they just want to apply that to every specific situation. So we should emphasize that these guidelines really are just a starting point. And then to say, Well, let’s start Yeah, and if we’re going to weigh up these alternatives, let’s use your specific information and listening to what their clients outcome is, or the ideal outcome, I think is getting more and more important, and the financial planning standards boards also AQ echoing those skills that we require for that. The last two, which I want to spend a bit more time on is two that I’m very excited about that they’ve included. Yeah, the skill number nine is being technologically savvy, proficient in the use of modern technology, especially financial planning related software and tools, effectively select and use technology to engage the client and deliver financial planning services and products. Now, this now we have it on a document saying that you cannot only outsource the technology decisions, you can’t wait for the youngest member of your team to select the next CRM, you it’s part of your occupation now, and you need to have the skills as a financial planner to understand how these tools work, and to use them to apply them to deliver great financial planning. Now, I’m not saying that you have to be an technical expert and understand everything when it comes to technology. But you have to spend a bit of time knowing what these tools can do an even if it’s 10 minutes every day, where you just scratch around within the technology and you start looking at, well, what menus are here? Like what are these options, one of the things that I can think about these so many webinars are there. Within our business, we prefer to look more towards tools that will keep up with technology. So our CRM is based on an American structure called wealth box. And it’s the first year in where our team is actually spending a lot of time in the CRM capturing tasks capturing workflows capturing client information. And they always say the best CRM is the one that you will use. When someone asked me lately, which CRM should we use, should I move from XYZ to z y x? CRM, I equated it to having a favorite beer. There’s so many different CRMs. And there’s so many different beers that you could like you’re the best CRM, or the one that fits your business is going to be the one that you actually enjoy the most and the one that you you can drink on a regular basis. So play around with the CRM tools, the switching and moving between tools, it’s actually not that difficult. But when you get to a point where you say, Okay, this is one that ticks most of the boxes. The mistake that I made early in our business is that when we moved, I forgot that the rest of the team might not be as open to these changes, and that I need to slow things down a little bit. I need to communicate that a these are the things that we considering this is why we’re considering the tool. This is the impact that it might have in the business. And this is also the process and the timeline that we will have to consider the rollout. It doesn’t have to happen overnight. These changes can be slowly introduced. But when you think about an ecosystem of technology, I think it’s important to still start with a CRM that You know, and you’re like and you, you’re one that you feel comfortable using to capture quick client information. It’s getting more and more obvious, as businesses grow, that there has to be a central place. We, we track client communication, we make notes of people, phoning and important dates, client meetings and client workflows. And those workflows have also become our Business Library, so that when someone new comes in, they can still follow the workflows, and it prompts them for the different steps that they need to take. Together with your CRM, you might want to have a financial planning standalone to now for us, that’s acid map. And within acid map, we can capture all of the client’s financial information. Now, this is not going to be detailed budgets, but it is going to show you which financial entities are they are they trust? Are the companies who has shareholding in the different ones? Can you capture some assets, some liabilities, some investment portfolios, some retirement portfolios, and it becomes that presentation layer where we can easily update financial information. And we can use that to display that to our clients to share with them. This is our understanding of your finances, are we missing anything. And for a lot of clients, organizing their finances in one place is so valuable, because they’ve never really added up the net worth. Now, some clients, yes, they have a spreadsheet, and they track the accounts and they’re updated maybe every month or every week. But that is by far the minority. For clients looking at the total assets on one page, it often triggers something very emotional, specifically ones that might have thought that they do not have sufficient assets, they will never have sufficient assets to live their lifestyle, they will never be able to retire. You know, these things are that our emotions are not often based in reality. It’s maybe something that we have lived with for a very long time. And as a financial planner, when you are seeing your clients assets and liabilities. And you can summarize that and offer it back to the client. And it might even be as simple as Mr. Mrs. Client. If we look at your total net worth, you are sitting with X amount of money, did you realize this is the amount? Did you maybe expect a little bit more? Did you expect a little bit late? Or did you have any idea that this is what it would be offering that in a non judgmental way, often bring some relief. We hear that all the time clients saying wow, I never realized that it’s actually actually more than what I expected. Now, this will not be every client situation, there will be situations where someone has avoided adding up all the dates, someone has maybe avoided looking at their retirement demands. And I do think by and large, those type of clients we might not get to engage with as financial planners. In that old mutual study, the savings monitor, they talk about four out of every 10 people are engaging with financial planners, and this is at about a sample of 1100 people that they did earlier this year. For people that are earning an income, I think the bottom income level was 9000 Rand per month. So for people earning 9000 grand or more, about 40% of them are engaging with financial planners who are using financial planners. And so that means that we have to cater our skills and the way we deliver advice to our target market. To be able to be effective in the way that we deliver advice and communicate, we need to understand those clients and and if you’re listening to this, you are probably on the journey to try and improve the way you deliver advice. So back to do this tick skill. It’s having time and energy to spend a bit of time on YouTube. Just thinking about you know the tools that you already have. If you’re in the Microsoft suite, spend a bit of time understanding Excel, spend a bit of time watching videos on what you can do with things like Microsoft lists or even Power BI. These really wonderful tools that we can use as financial planners. It doesn’t have to cost an arm and a leg and it can really improve the way we deliver advice. The last skill that the financial planning standards board is required. bring us to have a certified financial planners. Or if you’re aspiring to become a certified financial planner, you would be very well served to spend time building these skills. The last one we have is emotional intelligence, understanding and managing one’s own emotions, and those of others understand and know yourself and manage behavioral biases, control impulses, which includes main training calm, and not overreacting to positive or negative situations, be aware of and consider the feelings of the client and related or other parties. Now this one is one that is definitely tied 100% towards the psychology of financial planning. And emotional intelligence is one of those things that often men struggle with a sometimes joke saying meant to be the only have three emotions, it’s mad, sad, and glad. And those are the ones that we can identify. But, you know, within that joke, there is a bit of truth, when I first attended the Alan gray behavioral coaching workshop, and was a series of events that started with emotional intelligence and the lectures and in a Roland Cox that delivered, a lot of the presentation spoke about how we need to be emotional intelligent, to be able to identify our own emotions. And for me, oftentimes, I would think, Oh, well, how do I know which emotions are showing up. And so the shortcut to knowing about those emotions is that they’re often present physically. And you can imagine if someone said, there might be tears, but it might be less subtle than that, it might be a slightly increased heart rate, it might be struggling to breathe a little bit. And these could all be signs of excitement, but they could also be signs of fear. And within the slides that I shared is one of the one of the slides has the Wheel of Emotions. And that’s a great slide to help us start thinking about our emotions. And at the beginning of the slide, or the center of the slide, they have seven different main emotional areas, which runs between happy, sad, bad, angry, disgusted, fearful and surprised. And that’s what where this stops. So on the other side of the wheel, each of those areas then have additional, let’s call them spokes, and that additional sections. So for instance, with in bed, you could feel bored, busy, stressed or tired.

So that helps you to kind of move from the big from the middle outward, and say, well, actually, I’m, I’m maybe I’m feeling angry, but it’s not really angered. Maybe I’m feeling humiliated. That’s very different from angry, but you will look at some of these words, and they will help us to really identify emotions a little bit better. And even then from humiliated, you could move outwards to the last section of the wheel, when you maleate, it is broken down into disrespected, or ridiculed. And immediately when I say those words, those are two very different things. And this really is great to not only be able to identify our own emotions, but I’ve used it quite a few times with clients, where they might be very emotional, and they’re not sure what they’re feeling where I would just have this wheel open and said, well, help me to understand where you are on this wheel. You know, are you sad? Are you angry? are you fearful? And then they can expand on this. And so well, actually, it’s not disrespected, it’s maybe feeling furious. Right? You can, you can imagine just the change of those words still fall under the angry umbrella. But they actually mean very different things. And with emotions, I think we often think that there’s good emotions and these bad emotions, it’s really helpful to move away from wanting to change the emotion. And just saying, this is something that I can note comes up when we talk about money. You know, I often feel distant, I might feel withdrawn or numb a client might say, and your role there is not to change the emotion. It’s really just for someone to feel comfortable sharing the way they’re feeling at that point. And just noting it. And as you work more and more around you emotional intelligence, you can start thinking about, Oh, well, here’s a pattern. I feel this same emotion. And that shows up physically when these things happen, and then ultimately, that would lead to potentially a change in the action. And when you think about this model of the head, the heart and the hands, we often get stuck in one of those, you might be someone that likes to do things that like to jump into action, and you might lead with your hands. But if you are that kind of person, you would probably not spend a lot of time thinking about the heart, how you feeling about that situation, or the head, what you have thought about that situation, within our business, most of the clients that we deal with, get stuck in their heads. And we call that kind of analysis paralysis, they spend so much time trying to analyze every piece of the financial decision that they get stuck, they don’t take action, or they don’t always think about the emotions, that that action would lead to, or the situation would lead to. So emotional intelligence is having an awareness and understanding your own emotions and those of others, but then also being able to control those emotions. And interestingly, in this section, they talk about not only the negative situations, but also the positive situations, it’s easy to over identify with someone that maybe has just won the lottery or is really, really happy with the last year’s returns, and everything is wonderful. Right now, I’m not saying don’t celebrate with your clients. But it’s easy to get into a position where we over react to the positive emotions. So our place is to help guide our clients. When emotions come into the decision making, which is 100% of the time, you cannot remove emotions from any decision. In fact, you don’t want to, because it’s the emotions that drive the action that we take to ultimately, hopefully, make a decision that serves us and something. And when I say us, as clients, as as individuals of people that have to look after families, that you use these emotions, to help someone make better quality decisions. And that is something that I think artificial intelligence. And robo advisors are still a very long way off in terms of bringing into the fold of being able to say, let’s work with this person, wherever they are right now, in coaching that often say meet the person where they’re at. So work with them where they are right now, not just you know their location, but where they are in terms of what they are ready to tackle, what they want to tackle. And when we start breaking down financial planning, in these different sections, we can identify the areas that that client would actually get the most benefit from, I really don’t think we’re at a point where we have to change everything. In fact, it’s so difficult when thinking about the way financial planning has always been delivered to look at all the areas where there might be a problem in the finances and try to optimize it try to get it to 100%. While actually, we are aiming here for the one or two decisions, that is going to have the biggest impact. Because when we’re dealing with decision making, we cannot make too many changes at once. We really want to bring the pace down, we want to slow it down. And we want to include the family to actually set someone up for success. When you’re having discussions with maybe just one party, husband and a wife and you don’t have the other party there, it’s really difficult because that party has to then go back and say, well, actually, my wife, this is what we discussed. And this is what we want to do. And if that person’s part of their future, and their financial planning future, they have to be involved in that decision, not only to make sure that you your planning is right, but also there to support the person that has to make these tough decisions. I hope this has been helpful. This is a piece that I think will expand in the future years. It is really interesting because from a South African perspective, this is the guideline that we have to look to. It is also very similar to what the American route has followed for expanding on the psychology of financial planning. I want to urge you to have a look at the slides. Have a look at the financial planning Institute’s website where you can do what you can attained by Brad Clontz his course, Brad and trolls Dr. Dr. Brad Clontz and Dr. Charles Chaffin that wrote the psychology of financial planning. You can attend the course where they help you to unpack each of the modules in the textbook. There’s videos and there’s quizzes on each of the sections. I think it’s very helpful. It is a bit more theoretical. But there are areas that you can actually use and apply to your everyday dealings with clients. And then if you are in South Africa in November and you find yourself in Johannesburg, the Financial Planning Institute convention Dr. Charles Chaffin will also be presenting there. The dates are on their financial planning Institute’s website. So I think that would be worthwhile attending. And this is an area that will continue to expand as we understand our clients better as our roles change into the future. And I hope this podcast has helped you to maybe understand the psychology of financial planning and the professional skills that we are already required to have a little bit better. Enjoy your journey.